the Sabbath

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TMS

TMS

Senior Member
#1,002
Mar 21, 2015
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#1,002
The debate about the covenant is a long one... and i don't have the time but it is the point were most are mislead to believe that the 10 commandments are abolished.

God made many covenants.. and the Bible refers to "THE COVENANT", "A COVENANT", "and "MY COVENANT"

I looked to see the meaning and found that " An agreement between at least 2 people", is not suficent to explan the the meaning.
A covenant is a promise that is sanctioned by an oath.
What did God mean?

many claim that the ten commandments are plainly called the covenant. Then they turn to Deuteronomy 5:2, 3, to show that this covenant had no previous existence, but was established at Horeb, where Paul also, quoting from the prophet, says that the first covenant was made: “The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.”

So why are the ten commandments called “the covenant.”? this is just where the people are misled. This is the mistake.

They are never called “the” covenant, referring to the first or old covenant. That the ten commandments are called “a” covenant, but what kind of a covenant? and in what sense are they so called? Pleased read again Exodus 19:5: “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant”. God had something which He called His covenant, which antedated or predated the covenant made with Israel.

It was already in existence, before any formal agreement whatever was made with that people. And this explains Deuteronomy 4:13.
Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Those who read that verse should be critical enough to observe that Moses does not call the ten commandments the covenant, nor a covenant, but his (God’s) covenant. These, then, are what God referred to in Exodus 19:5, in the words, my covenant; and these were already in existence when the covenant was made with Israel.
It should be noticed, further, that the covenant of Deuteronomy 4:23, is not a covenant made, but a covenant commanded; and surely any one can see the difference between an arrangement established upon this voluntary and mutual promises of two parties, and that which one party has power to enjoin with authority upon another party. But the covenant here mentioned, God did thus enjoin upon them without regard to any action on their part.

It is now easy to be seen why the ten commandments are called a covenant, and what kind of a covenant they were. They were simply the basis of that agreement recorded in Exodus 19:3-8. For the very first condition God proposed was, “If ye will keep my covenant.” In this sense, and in this only, are the ten commandments ever called a covenant.

And this brings us to the secondary definition of the term covenant; which is, “a writing containing the terms of agreement between parties.” Thus the conditions upon which an agreement or covenant rests, are in a secondary sense called also a covenant. This may be illustrated by the relation which all good citizens sustain to their respective States. They are all in covenant relation with the State. The State says, If you will obey the laws of this commonwealth, you shall be protected in your life, liberty, and property. The citizens respond, We will obey. This is the mutual agreement, the covenant, virtually existing everywhere between the citizen and the State. But when we speak of the State alone, its covenant would be its laws which it commands its citizens to perform. These are the conditions of the agreement, and hence may be called the covenant of the State, because upon obedience to these are suspended all the blessings which it proposes to confer.

Such was the relation established between the Lord and his people. He had a law which the very circumstances of our existence bind us to keep; yet he graciously annexed a promise to the keeping of it. Obey my law, and I will secure you in the possession of certain blessings above all people. The people accepted the offer. The matter then stood thus: The people said, We will keep God’s law. God said, Then I will make you a kingdom of priests, a peculiar treasure unto myself. This was the agreement or covenant made between them. But so far as God was concerned his law was his covenant, because it was the basis of the whole arrangement, and upon the keeping of that by the people, all the blessings were suspended which he proposed to confer.
 
G

gb9

Senior Member
#1,003
Jan 18, 2011
11,781
6,355
113
#1,003
TMS said:
The debate about the covenant is a long one... and i don't have the time but it is the point were most are mislead to believe that the 10 commandments are abolished.

God made many covenants.. and the Bible refers to "THE COVENANT", "A COVENANT", "and "MY COVENANT"

I looked to see the meaning and found that " An agreement between at least 2 people", is not suficent to explan the the meaning.
A covenant is a promise that is sanctioned by an oath.
What did God mean?

many claim that the ten commandments are plainly called the covenant. Then they turn to Deuteronomy 5:2, 3, to show that this covenant had no previous existence, but was established at Horeb, where Paul also, quoting from the prophet, says that the first covenant was made: “The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.”

So why are the ten commandments called “the covenant.”? this is just where the people are misled. This is the mistake.

They are never called “the” covenant, referring to the first or old covenant. That the ten commandments are called “a” covenant, but what kind of a covenant? and in what sense are they so called? Pleased read again Exodus 19:5: “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant”. God had something which He called His covenant, which antedated or predated the covenant made with Israel.

It was already in existence, before any formal agreement whatever was made with that people. And this explains Deuteronomy 4:13.
Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Those who read that verse should be critical enough to observe that Moses does not call the ten commandments the covenant, nor a covenant, but his (God’s) covenant. These, then, are what God referred to in Exodus 19:5, in the words, my covenant; and these were already in existence when the covenant was made with Israel.
It should be noticed, further, that the covenant of Deuteronomy 4:23, is not a covenant made, but a covenant commanded; and surely any one can see the difference between an arrangement established upon this voluntary and mutual promises of two parties, and that which one party has power to enjoin with authority upon another party. But the covenant here mentioned, God did thus enjoin upon them without regard to any action on their part.

It is now easy to be seen why the ten commandments are called a covenant, and what kind of a covenant they were. They were simply the basis of that agreement recorded in Exodus 19:3-8. For the very first condition God proposed was, “If ye will keep my covenant.” In this sense, and in this only, are the ten commandments ever called a covenant.

And this brings us to the secondary definition of the term covenant; which is, “a writing containing the terms of agreement between parties.” Thus the conditions upon which an agreement or covenant rests, are in a secondary sense called also a covenant. This may be illustrated by the relation which all good citizens sustain to their respective States. They are all in covenant relation with the State. The State says, If you will obey the laws of this commonwealth, you shall be protected in your life, liberty, and property. The citizens respond, We will obey. This is the mutual agreement, the covenant, virtually existing everywhere between the citizen and the State. But when we speak of the State alone, its covenant would be its laws which it commands its citizens to perform. These are the conditions of the agreement, and hence may be called the covenant of the State, because upon obedience to these are suspended all the blessings which it proposes to confer.

Such was the relation established between the Lord and his people. He had a law which the very circumstances of our existence bind us to keep; yet he graciously annexed a promise to the keeping of it. Obey my law, and I will secure you in the possession of certain blessings above all people. The people accepted the offer. The matter then stood thus: The people said, We will keep God’s law. God said, Then I will make you a kingdom of priests, a peculiar treasure unto myself. This was the agreement or covenant made between them. But so far as God was concerned his law was his covenant, because it was the basis of the whole arrangement, and upon the keeping of that by the people, all the blessings were suspended which he proposed to confer.
Click to expand...
but, who was the Covenant made with?

Israel , when they came out of egypt. " it shall be a statue forever with the nation of Israel".

gentiles were never under the Covenant that God made with Moses on behalf of Israel on Sinai.
 
I

Inquisitor

Well-known member
#1,005
Mar 17, 2022
2,349
721
113
#1,005
TMS said:
The debate about the covenant is a long one... and i don't have the time but it is the point were most are mislead to believe that the 10 commandments are abolished.

God made many covenants.. and the Bible refers to "THE COVENANT", "A COVENANT", "and "MY COVENANT"

I looked to see the meaning and found that " An agreement between at least 2 people", is not suficent to explan the the meaning.
A covenant is a promise that is sanctioned by an oath.
What did God mean?

many claim that the ten commandments are plainly called the covenant. Then they turn to Deuteronomy 5:2, 3, to show that this covenant had no previous existence, but was established at Horeb, where Paul also, quoting from the prophet, says that the first covenant was made: “The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.”

So why are the ten commandments called “the covenant.”? this is just where the people are misled. This is the mistake.

They are never called “the” covenant, referring to the first or old covenant. That the ten commandments are called “a” covenant, but what kind of a covenant? and in what sense are they so called? Pleased read again Exodus 19:5: “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant”. God had something which He called His covenant, which antedated or predated the covenant made with Israel.

It was already in existence, before any formal agreement whatever was made with that people. And this explains Deuteronomy 4:13.
Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Those who read that verse should be critical enough to observe that Moses does not call the ten commandments the covenant, nor a covenant, but his (God’s) covenant. These, then, are what God referred to in Exodus 19:5, in the words, my covenant; and these were already in existence when the covenant was made with Israel.
It should be noticed, further, that the covenant of Deuteronomy 4:23, is not a covenant made, but a covenant commanded; and surely any one can see the difference between an arrangement established upon this voluntary and mutual promises of two parties, and that which one party has power to enjoin with authority upon another party. But the covenant here mentioned, God did thus enjoin upon them without regard to any action on their part.

It is now easy to be seen why the ten commandments are called a covenant, and what kind of a covenant they were. They were simply the basis of that agreement recorded in Exodus 19:3-8. For the very first condition God proposed was, “If ye will keep my covenant.” In this sense, and in this only, are the ten commandments ever called a covenant.

And this brings us to the secondary definition of the term covenant; which is, “a writing containing the terms of agreement between parties.” Thus the conditions upon which an agreement or covenant rests, are in a secondary sense called also a covenant. This may be illustrated by the relation which all good citizens sustain to their respective States. They are all in covenant relation with the State. The State says, If you will obey the laws of this commonwealth, you shall be protected in your life, liberty, and property. The citizens respond, We will obey. This is the mutual agreement, the covenant, virtually existing everywhere between the citizen and the State. But when we speak of the State alone, its covenant would be its laws which it commands its citizens to perform. These are the conditions of the agreement, and hence may be called the covenant of the State, because upon obedience to these are suspended all the blessings which it proposes to confer.

Such was the relation established between the Lord and his people. He had a law which the very circumstances of our existence bind us to keep; yet he graciously annexed a promise to the keeping of it. Obey my law, and I will secure you in the possession of certain blessings above all people. The people accepted the offer. The matter then stood thus: The people said, We will keep God’s law. God said, Then I will make you a kingdom of priests, a peculiar treasure unto myself. This was the agreement or covenant made between them. But so far as God was concerned his law was his covenant, because it was the basis of the whole arrangement, and upon the keeping of that by the people, all the blessings were suspended which he proposed to confer.
Click to expand...
Let ChatGPT comment on your post.

The argument presented attempts to clarify the meaning of the term "covenant" in the context of God's agreements with humanity, specifically focusing on the Ten Commandments. While the argument makes an effort to distinguish between "the" covenant and "a" covenant, and to explain the nature of the covenant, there are some potential issues and points to consider:
  1. Semantic Interpretation: The argument relies heavily on a semantic interpretation of the term "covenant." It suggests that the Ten Commandments are not "the" covenant but are rather conditions or terms of the agreement. However, the interpretation may be based on a selective reading of biblical passages and may not be universally accepted by all theologians or scholars.
  2. Interpretation of Exodus 19:5: The argument hinges on the interpretation of Exodus 19:5, where God says, "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant." The argument contends that God's covenant mentioned here predates the formal agreement with Israel. However, alternative interpretations of this verse may exist, and different scholars may offer different perspectives.
  3. Deuteronomy 4:13: The argument places significance on the wording of Deuteronomy 4:13, stating that Moses does not call the Ten Commandments "the" covenant but "his (God’s) covenant." However, interpretations may vary, and the context of the entire passage should be considered.
  4. Use of Terminology: The argument introduces the idea that the covenant in Deuteronomy 4:23 is not a covenant made but a covenant commanded. The distinction between a covenant made and a covenant commanded might be a nuanced interpretation and may not be universally agreed upon.
  5. Selective Interpretation: The argument focuses on a particular interpretation that aligns with the view that the Ten Commandments are conditions of an agreement rather than the agreement itself. However, different theological traditions and scholars may have diverse interpretations of these biblical passages.
When engaging in discussions about religious texts and interpretations, it's essential to recognize the diversity of perspectives within religious communities and scholarly circles. Different interpretations may coexist, and the presented argument represents one particular viewpoint on the nature of covenants in the biblical context.
 
S

SabbathBlessing

Active member
#1,007
Dec 13, 2023
881
140
43
#1,007
TMS said:
The debate about the covenant is a long one... and i don't have the time but it is the point were most are mislead to believe that the 10 commandments are abolished.

God made many covenants.. and the Bible refers to "THE COVENANT", "A COVENANT", "and "MY COVENANT"

I looked to see the meaning and found that " An agreement between at least 2 people", is not suficent to explan the the meaning.
A covenant is a promise that is sanctioned by an oath.
What did God mean?

many claim that the ten commandments are plainly called the covenant. Then they turn to Deuteronomy 5:2, 3, to show that this covenant had no previous existence, but was established at Horeb, where Paul also, quoting from the prophet, says that the first covenant was made: “The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.”

So why are the ten commandments called “the covenant.”? this is just where the people are misled. This is the mistake.

They are never called “the” covenant, referring to the first or old covenant. That the ten commandments are called “a” covenant, but what kind of a covenant? and in what sense are they so called? Pleased read again Exodus 19:5: “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant”. God had something which He called His covenant, which antedated or predated the covenant made with Israel.

It was already in existence, before any formal agreement whatever was made with that people. And this explains Deuteronomy 4:13.
Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Those who read that verse should be critical enough to observe that Moses does not call the ten commandments the covenant, nor a covenant, but his (God’s) covenant. These, then, are what God referred to in Exodus 19:5, in the words, my covenant; and these were already in existence when the covenant was made with Israel.
It should be noticed, further, that the covenant of Deuteronomy 4:23, is not a covenant made, but a covenant commanded; and surely any one can see the difference between an arrangement established upon this voluntary and mutual promises of two parties, and that which one party has power to enjoin with authority upon another party. But the covenant here mentioned, God did thus enjoin upon them without regard to any action on their part.

It is now easy to be seen why the ten commandments are called a covenant, and what kind of a covenant they were. They were simply the basis of that agreement recorded in Exodus 19:3-8. For the very first condition God proposed was, “If ye will keep my covenant.” In this sense, and in this only, are the ten commandments ever called a covenant.

And this brings us to the secondary definition of the term covenant; which is, “a writing containing the terms of agreement between parties.” Thus the conditions upon which an agreement or covenant rests, are in a secondary sense called also a covenant. This may be illustrated by the relation which all good citizens sustain to their respective States. They are all in covenant relation with the State. The State says, If you will obey the laws of this commonwealth, you shall be protected in your life, liberty, and property. The citizens respond, We will obey. This is the mutual agreement, the covenant, virtually existing everywhere between the citizen and the State. But when we speak of the State alone, its covenant would be its laws which it commands its citizens to perform. These are the conditions of the agreement, and hence may be called the covenant of the State, because upon obedience to these are suspended all the blessings which it proposes to confer.

Such was the relation established between the Lord and his people. He had a law which the very circumstances of our existence bind us to keep; yet he graciously annexed a promise to the keeping of it. Obey my law, and I will secure you in the possession of certain blessings above all people. The people accepted the offer. The matter then stood thus: The people said, We will keep God’s law. God said, Then I will make you a kingdom of priests, a peculiar treasure unto myself. This was the agreement or covenant made between them. But so far as God was concerned his law was his covenant, because it was the basis of the whole arrangement, and upon the keeping of that by the people, all the blessings were suspended which he proposed to confer.
Click to expand...
Great study! If we have faith in the teachings of Jesus we would see what you demonstrated is true. Never did Jesus teach we can break the least of these commandments, but told us to keep them and teach others to keep. Mat 5:19-30 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 15:3-14 Mat 19:17-19 John 14:15 Exo 20:6. God loves us so much He personally wrote and spoke His holy law and placed it in our hearts and minds and gives us the power to keep through His Spirit John 14:15-18 we just need to cooperate with Him.
 
S

SabbathBlessing

Active member
#1,008
Dec 13, 2023
881
140
43
#1,008
gb9 said:
but, who was the Covenant made with?

Israel , when they came out of egypt. " it shall be a statue forever with the nation of Israel".

gentiles were never under the Covenant that God made with Moses on behalf of Israel on Sinai.
Click to expand...
The same people He made the New Covenant with.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

There is just one people in God's covenant - those grafted in through faith. Gal 3:26-28
 
G

gb9

Senior Member
#1,009
Jan 18, 2011
11,781
6,355
113
#1,009
SabbathBlessing said:
The same people He made the New Covenant with.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

There is just one people in God's covenant - those grafted in through faith. Gal 3:26-28
Click to expand...
there are 2 Covenants, old and new. there is no " renewed Covenant ", that is a made up concept.

so, ellen white, false teacher , or no???
 
S

SabbathBlessing

Active member
#1,010
Dec 13, 2023
881
140
43
#1,010
gb9 said:
there are 2 Covenants, old and new. there is no " renewed Covenant ", that is a made up concept.

so, ellen white, false teacher , or no???
Click to expand...
The New Covenant is established on better promises, not better laws. Heb 8:6 and God writes His law in our hearts Heb 8:10 . God’s is perfect and so is the law that He personally wrote and personally spoke is perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7 Can’t make something perfect more perfect which is why it’s still sin to break the least of these commandments in the NC Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 James 2:10-12 but kept by God’s faithful through love John 14:15 Exo 20:6 1 John 5:3 Rev 12:17 Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14
 
G

gb9

Senior Member
#1,011
Jan 18, 2011
11,781
6,355
113
#1,011
SabbathBlessing said:
The New Covenant is established on better promises, not better laws. Heb 8:6 and God writes His law in our hearts Heb 8:10 . God’s is perfect and so is the law that He personally wrote and personally spoke is perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7 Can’t make something perfect more perfect which is why it’s still sin to break the least of these commandments in the NC Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 James 2:10-12 but kept by God’s faithful through love John 14:15 Exo 20:6 1 John 5:3 Rev 12:17 Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14
Click to expand...
so, no comment on ellen white.

interesting.
 
I

Inquisitor

Well-known member
#1,013
Mar 17, 2022
2,349
721
113
#1,013
SabbathBlessing said:
Great study! If we have faith in the teachings of Jesus we would see what you demonstrated is true. Never did Jesus teach we can break the least of these commandments, but told us to keep them and teach others to keep. Mat 5:19-30 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 15:3-14 Mat 19:17-19 John 14:15 Exo 20:6. God loves us so much He personally wrote and spoke His holy law and placed it in our hearts and minds and gives us the power to keep through His Spirit John 14:15-18 we just need to cooperate with Him.
Click to expand...
Who is breaking the ten commandments?

I have the righteousness of Christ.

Tell me, are you accusing me of not being perfectly righteous in Christ?
 
TMS

TMS

Senior Member
#1,014
Mar 21, 2015
3,585
1,080
113
Australia
#1,014
gb9 said:
but, who was the Covenant made with?

Israel , when they came out of egypt. " it shall be a statue forever with the nation of Israel".

gentiles were never under the Covenant that God made with Moses on behalf of Israel on Sinai.
Click to expand...
i never debate that, i admit that the old covenant was made with Israel..
But people are confused about the 10 commandments, If the 10 commandments are not the covenant made with Israel then they were not replaced or removed.

the old covernant was removed and replaced by the new covernant. What was removed? Are the 10 commandments still standing today?
 
TMS

TMS

Senior Member
#1,015
Mar 21, 2015
3,585
1,080
113
Australia
#1,015
Inquisitor said:
Who is breaking the ten commandments?

I have the righteousness of Christ.

Tell me, are you accusing me of not being perfectly righteous in Christ?
Click to expand...
God is judge not me or anyone else.
But i accuse you of making void the law by faith.. Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

If you are saying we can continue to sin or continue to made any law void because of the righteousness of Jesus you are doing exactly what paul states we should not do.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Shall we forget the sabbath because of grace? God forbid, we should establish the law.
 
TMS

TMS

Senior Member
#1,016
Mar 21, 2015
3,585
1,080
113
Australia
#1,016
SabbathBlessing said:
Great study! If we have faith in the teachings of Jesus we would see what you demonstrated is true. Never did Jesus teach we can break the least of these commandments, but told us to keep them and teach others to keep. Mat 5:19-30 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 15:3-14 Mat 19:17-19 John 14:15 Exo 20:6. God loves us so much He personally wrote and spoke His holy law and placed it in our hearts and minds and gives us the power to keep through His Spirit John 14:15-18 we just need to cooperate with Him.
Click to expand...
Yes it isn't about being perfect,, it is about surrender and submission to the one you love.

If you Love Jesus the obedience is a delight and not a burden. Obedience to the law is (by faith through grace) letting Jesus do His will in us which requires us allowing Him because we love Him.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
 
TMS

TMS

Senior Member
#1,017
Mar 21, 2015
3,585
1,080
113
Australia
#1,017
Inquisitor said:
Semantic Interpretation: The argument relies heavily on a semantic interpretation of the term "covenant." It suggests that the Ten Commandments are not "the" covenant but are rather conditions or terms of the agreement. However, the interpretation may be based on a selective reading of biblical passages and may not be universally accepted by all theologians or scholars.
Click to expand...
In the days of Jesus with all the prophetic scripture, most scholars denighed the messiah. They missed the point because they didn't want that type of messiah. they were very selective in their way of seeing things, even blinded.
 
TMS

TMS

Senior Member
#1,018
Mar 21, 2015
3,585
1,080
113
Australia
#1,018
Inquisitor said:
When engaging in discussions about religious texts and interpretations, it's essential to recognize the diversity of perspectives within religious communities and scholarly circles. Different interpretations may coexist, and the presented argument represents one particular viewpoint on the nature of covenants in the biblical context.
Click to expand...
So were the Ten commandments Gods conditions or were they the Covernant?
 
I

Inquisitor

Well-known member
#1,019
Mar 17, 2022
2,349
721
113
#1,019
TMS said:
i never debate that, i admit that the old covenant was made with Israel..
But people are confused about the 10 commandments, If the 10 commandments are not the covenant made with Israel then they were not replaced or removed.

the old covernant was removed and replaced by the new covernant. What was removed? Are the 10 commandments still standing today?
Click to expand...
Exodus 19:5
Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine.

Exodus 20
Then God spoke all these words, saying, “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me."

"obey My voice and keep My covenant"

"Then God spoke all these words, saying..."

The covenant was based on everything the Lord spoke, including the ten commandments.
 
I

Inquisitor

Well-known member
#1,020
Mar 17, 2022
2,349
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#1,020
TMS said:
In the days of Jesus with all the prophetic scripture, most scholars denighed the messiah. They missed the point because they didn't want that type of messiah. they were very selective in their way of seeing things, even blinded.
Click to expand...
That's what your doing.

Your in denial that the ten commandments were spoken to Israel (Exodus 20).

Your in denial that the decalogue was in the old covenant.
 
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