Rapture timing matters?

Just recognizing each letter was written to a specific church, without saying those specific things written in each letter "prison for 10 days" might apply to the future also, while acknowledging they might.

Precious friend, I [pre-trib friend] am constantly told to "sit down and
shut up," but I will not treat you [pre-wrath] that way, because:


So, since we both believe "timing matters," please advise exactly
how pre-wrath "prepares to endure to the end"?

Thanks in advance...

Okay, so for example, in an earlier post I'd written about 2Th2:1-2 (not all direct quotes, other than where I placed quotation marks below),

"1 we beseech you... BY / IN THE INTERESTS OF THE TRUTH CONCERNING" our Rapture [IN THE AIR],
2 not to be persuaded [deceived] by anyone trying to convince you that "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]"


... my questions to you (about this) would be:

--in verse 1,
a) what do you believe the phrase "and our episynagoges unto Him" (the entire Subject of v.1) is referring to... Do you believe (as I do, and many others) that "our" speaks of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" corporately (that is, in its entirety--including "us" today)?,
b) and that "episynagoges UNTO HIM [/Jesus]" speaks of the same "caught up [G726]" matter [/concept] that the 1Th4:17 context [and 3:13 "before [G1715] the God and Father of us"-same context] speaks about?
c) Or do you believe this (verse 1) is referring to something other than these?



--secondly, in verse 2, I do not believe Paul is referring to something they should "see" (and not be deceived by), but that he was exhorting them to not be "deceived" by something (a particular false claim) either being then circulated, or that could potentially circulate, which would have this adverse effect on their state of mind / thoughts ("troubled" etc, as I put in my earlier post)... because Paul is establishing [rather, reiterating to their minds] how the ONE Subject (v.1) relates to the OTHER Subject (the "false claim's content" per v.2).

My questions here re: v.2 are,
a) do you believe: "the day of the Lord" is an earthly-located time-period... that will ARRIVE [whenever that might be] to unfold upon the earth?;
b) and that the 'false claim" (v.2) regarding it, was "THAT... [it] IS ALREADY HERE / IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]" (rather than the common idea that "the false claim" [v.2] was that it was "near" / soon to take place)?;
c) and that Paul had already in his first letter acknowledged WHEN and HOW it will ARRIVE ("exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" OF the very ones of those that Jesus had already talked about in Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11)?;
d) and that these "beginning of birth pangs [pl]" are EQUIVALENT to the SEALS (Rev6)?;
e) and that Rev1:1 / 1:19c 4:1 establishes that these SEALS take place within the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; 1:1]" time-period that immediately precedes and LEADS UP TO Christ's "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19 (parallel, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom, not "TO BE wed" at that point; yet the Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-48 passage I took that quote from has saints/faithful-and-wise/BLESSED [and its parallel passage in Matt24:42-51], not being whom He is MARRYING, are present on the earth "when" He will "RETURN" there (that is, to the earth)]



Had more... must run (sorry!)

This is what [point] I was speaking to, in my Post #12... where I'd inserted:

[re: 2:2] "[they were not being duped by something with ZERO evidence!]"

(and I should add, Paul did not think they were THAT dumb, that he would have to write them this letter in order to warn them of being "deceived" BY THAT [idea--with zero evidence of such a thing]! AT ALL! NO!)



IOW, (for one thing) zero persons had "disappeared / vanished"... all they would have to do is to look around; no "believers" in their sphere of sight had "gone missing"; so this was not exactly the "idea" being conveyed in the "false claim" Paul was speaking of in v.2, NOR what Paul would have felt the need to warn them regarding not being "deceived" about (v.2)--and there is absolutely no evidence (from the text itself) that the "false claimants" even knew of or had thoughts about "Rapture [IN THE AIR]"--Rather, the "false claim" (from what v.2 informs us) pertains solely to the idea of [the false claimants]: "[purporting] THAT the Day of the Lord [EARTHLY-located time-period] IS ALREADY HERE / IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]," nothing else.




Once we START from the information supplied [strictly] within verse 2 (about what the false claim actually and solely covers), then we can more accurately ascertain what Paul's actual point he is conveying in this text is.

If we INJECT (our own ideas [rather than using "biblically-defined" ones]) INTO the false claim verse 2 is speaking of, we run a very real risk of stepping far-afield of what Paul's actual point is in this text (... and many do).

It seems like verse one would prove this wrong "concerning the rapture..."

Bless you. Every believer and student of the Bible should always be treated with respect.

Like I wrote in my original post, knowing we will be experiencing all of the events of the first 3.5 years and then facing the prospect of death at the hands of the Antichrist for refusing to receive the Mark, prepares us to die for Christ. As soon as we realize this possible reality, we start to see all the Bible verses that prepare us for this time. We will be hated. Our loved ones will turn against us. We will be arrested. We will be given the words to say (at that time) by the Holy Spirit. We overcome the Antichrist by the blood of the Lamb, our testimony, and we love not our lives unto death. We endure to the end by never giving up our faith even in the face of death, especially since they will offer to not kill us if we just take the Mark.

No fear of death because to lose our lives for Jesus sake is to gain eternal life.

That is strength and preparation because you don't falsely believe God is going to rescue you from persecution and tribulation. Instead He has given us everything we need to endure to the end.
Bless you. Every believer and student of the Bible should always be treated with respect.



Like I wrote in my original post, knowing we will be experiencing all of the events of the first 3.5 years and then facing the prospect of death at the hands of the Antichrist for refusing to receive the Mark, prepares us to die for Christ. As soon as we realize this possible reality, we start to see all the Bible verses that prepare us for this time. We will be hated. Our loved ones will turn against us. We will be arrested. We will be given the words to say (at that time) by the Holy Spirit. We overcome the Antichrist by the blood of the Lamb, our testimony, and we love not our lives unto death. We endure to the end by never giving up our faith even in the face of death, especially since they will offer to not kill us if we just take the Mark.



No fear of death because to lose our lives for Jesus sake is to gain eternal life.



That is strength and preparation because you don't falsely believe God is going to rescue you from persecution and tribulation. Instead He has given us everything we need to endure to the end.

Paul is BRINGING the Subject of our Rapture (v.1) TO BEAR ON the matter of the "false claim" he is talking about [for them not to be "deceived" by] in v.2.

LOL, The Pretrib prepares the believer for nothing?


I never heard anything so unbiblical and opinionated.


Why does one even believe in a pre-trib rapture? Well, there are many Biblical texts and actions BY God in Both the Old and New Testaments where God Protected His People, prophets, and Saints from the Judgement of God.

1Thessalonians 5:9
"For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, "



FYI 40 years of hold to something is nothing compared to the Apostles who believed at any moment Jesus could come for them.
I guess you think they were foolish to believe and have hope in the Lord's coming?

I Guess Paul was wrong for giving false hope to the Christians in Thessalonica, where he said in 1Thessalonians chapter 4: 13-18

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

BY the Word of the LORD!

Your 40-year wait is irrelevant. I'm not subject to wrath. And I could die today, and my Going to be with Jesus could very well be today. HIS coming very well could be today.

Hopefully, we are ready NOW to meet Jesus because once we die, then the judgment. Mocking and scoffing doesn't make one stand more authoritative.
Jesus taught of HIS coming in John chapter 14

BUT bet you are fully set on who the anti-Christ is And greatly anticipating his appearing.


NOT ME!

I'm looking UP because my Redemption Drawth near. I am not looking for the antichrist; I'm looking for the Lord Jesus Christ.

And if people lived like HE was coming today, there would be no homosexuality in the church, and drunkness, adultery, hate and Hypocrisy. False teaching. They would pray and seek God and uphold HIS word. But because some waiting around for 40 think that is an achievement? That is not a drop in the bucket. As if God should be impressed, LOL.

Can you explain further your statement here ----it kind of makes no sense -----

So pretrib prepares the believer for nothing ----what do you mean here ?-----

Pretrib believers have all the preparation they need to be in the pretrib rapture ----they have received Jesus as their Lord and Saviour -----

And here you say -----prewrath prepares believers to "endure to the end.---what are you meaning here?

What prewrath are you speaking of for believers -------

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, how gracious you are!

I was also going to make a quick point (as to my earlier reasonings as to why these aren't waiting for "Rapture')... hope to make this point very briefly (with bullet points[?], hoping to be succinct since you seem to be tracking okay with what I'm saying--even if you choose not to agree... it's fine ):

[a few more reasons... and specifically on the BOLDED point in your quote above]

--notice how the verses (within chpts 2-3 to the churchES) are promising "white HIMATION" (which is what the "24 elders" saying "hast redeemed US... out of EVERY..." are shown wearing--and the "was found" phrasing in 5:4 indicating that a "SEARCHING judgment" has ALREADY BEEN concluded BEFORE the opening of the First Seal!);

--whereas in both the 5th Seal [martyrs] and the later Rev7:14 folks shown "coming out of the great tribulation [i.e. second half]," THEIRS (in both of those cases) are "white STOLE" instead;


--my point being that both the 5th Seal martyrs and the ones coming out of the great tribulation (somewhat later) aren't said to be awarded "white HIMATION" as the "things-WHICH-ARE"-saints (chpts 2-3) are promised (and the "24 elders" are shown already-awarded with!), but instead have / are given "white STOLE" (i.e. because both of THOSE sets of persons are saints having come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture," when THEY are IN the Trib years, aka IN "the IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; 1:1]" time-period that 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 says comes "AFTER" the things WHICH ARE [chpts 2-3's things]... iow, in the "future" aspects of the book [the Trib yrs].)

Not here to debate this. I've been hearing about this for over 55years now. Some wise and known will say they were once a pre-trib now post trib. One will use this "who has read the bible and come away with pre-trib? Yeah no one". To that I have to say.. here I am. Now I read whats posted here and so much is left out not being talked about and it wont be because it goes goes against post trib or goes against pre-trib.

Both sides do this. To make each one work you have to leave out some scriptures or tell others "what that verse is really saying" knowing Scholars disagree cannot be sure what some verses are really saying. Like the verse "falling away". What "some" always I mean always leave out is it does in fact also mean "departure". That word was the 1st one used in some translation many years ago. So one can say until the departure happens the lawless one will not come out in the open. You can also say "until the falling away happens" the lawless one will not come out in the open. Forgive me but to know this and yet leave it out is misleading. We all know there is no clear cut verse on pre nor post.

See what I personally believe I don't share because I cannot back it up with His word. What I know though and can share is what I have found out over 55y in the lord is if I doubt God He will not go against my will. I always share this. A prophet gone home now once said he was post trib BUT if Christ comes pre I am ready. So if Christ comes pre and you do not believe not ready not watching Christian or not to you it will be as if a theif came. He is no theif He took what was His. That's one thing no one can guarantee is if He comes pre you go anyway.

Precious friend, "no debate needed" = I respect you for that, and will humbly
and kindly not engage you, without your permission.

The reasons I leave the following [ points with multitudes of
Scripture ] out, and not post them, is:

A) I have said I would post "any they are interested in" kindly discussing

B) If they don't request them, then if I Disrespectfully posted them anyway, I
Thus, if any "are interested" why I am "pre-trib" then, just ask for any or
all of the following = all interests / no interests will be respected:

1a) Peace With God!
1b) Which Bible version should I use?
2) Bible study Rules
3) Three 'ages' Rightly Divided
4) Which Gospel 'makes way' for which gospel?
5) Great Tribulation, Or: tribulations/Great Grace Departure?
6) Departure 'expectations'
7) Heavenly Uplook for the Body Of Christ
8) Looking, Patiently waiting, and watching For 'Blessed Hope' (or 'signs'?)
9) God's Removal Of His Body Of Christ!:
10) The Day Of Christ vs Day Of The Lord vs Day Of God
11) Confidence in death/resurrection Or in living/glorification
12) No 'warning' Imminence
13) Two 'Trumps of God' In The Age of Grace
14) Meeting Christ 'in the air'
15) Preparation for 'Judgment Of The Entire Body Of Christ'
16) Post Departure Deceptions
+
Summary Conclusion Of pre-trib:

Amen.

gracious? plenty also truthful too.

The timing of the rapture, sometimes referred to as the Second Coming of Christ, is a subject of ongoing discussion and debate among Christians. Several perspectives exist concerning the relationship between the rapture and the final tribulation:

Premillennial Pre-Tribulation (most widespread in Western Christianity): The rapture happens before the seven-year tribulation begins.

Postmillennial: The rapture coincides with the Second Coming of Christ after the spiritual/symbolic millennium.

Amillennial: Similar to postmillennial, but without a literal millennium. The rapture coincides with the Second Coming of Christ.
Historic Premillennial: The rapture happens sometime during the tribulation.

Dispensational Premillennial Pre-Wrath: The rapture occurs close to the end of the tribulation, but before the bowl judgments of God's wrath.

Post-Tribulation: The rapture coincides with the Second Coming of Christ at the end of the tribulation.

Mid-Tribulation: The rapture occurs halfway through the tribulation.

These positions differ in their interpretation of key texts, particularly those related to the timing of the rapture, such as 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, and Revelation 3:10. Each perspective seeks to harmonize these texts with the broader narrative of Scripture and the nature of God's dealings with humankind

Somebody is wrong!
J.

The Rapture and the Second Coming are two very different events, but there are some who wish to make them one and the same event. And that is the source of a lot of confusion.

The resurrection and rapture at mid-trib is that of the two witnesses.

The two witnesses is not the Bride of Christ. We are the Bride and shall be attending our Wedding in Heaven during the Trib below. The purpose of the 7-year Trib does not concern the Church, but concerns Israel. The Trib is "The Time of Jacob's Troubles." I am well aware that the Lord could carry us through 7 years, but that is not what the Bible says will happen. Revelation 19 opens with the Church appearing in Heaven clothed in white linen. What follows is a return down, not a coming up. This certainly rules out the post-trib-rap scenario. What we have is a post-trib return with Christ, already fully clothed in fine linen clean and white.

People hardly prepare for tragedies they DO see facing - earthquakes, tornadoes, etc.... For sure they're not going to prepare for a tragedy they don't see facing. And what did Jesus say about those who are not prepared for what's coming? That many will turn away from Him. And that's the biggest tragedy of all.

As in the days of Noah. Suppose being warned about the flood, Noah didn't believe he would see it himself. He never would have driven the first nail.

I'm pre wrath, but my suggestion is:

Pray for pre
Prepare for post
and any other time, like right now, would be fine.

As long as you're re-visiting the rapture timing, perhaps you might re-visit your understanding of who the Bride actually is.