Predestination is misunderstood...

If they know they are a sinner,

and Know there is a God, who is just and holy

then they know they need help and can call out to God

that does not take regeneration

And since we're made in God's image, neither is the Image Maker's will "unfettered"!

You miss entirely the larger principle taught in the the passage. The persecuted audience to whom the writer was addressing (primarily Jewish believers) was in danger of falling away (apostatizing) from the faith, hence the repeated calls throughout the epistle for perseverance (Heb 3:12-19; 10:36; 12:1.) Professing Christians, too, can apostatize, just as Judas did and king Saul did, etc.

You were doing well until the bolded part. BUT that grace does not guarantee our salvation? I guess we can't call that kind of grace saving grace, can we? But I ask: Who can thwart God's purposes?.

Here we have an example of what I was saying. It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance. It is a Godly sorrow that is not to be repented of. The source of the sorrow is God Himself. It didn't originate with you or me. If God doesn't do this, men will never repent.

Here's another. Jesus is God. He hung out with sinners. So God, in choosing not to destroy Adam and Eve has done nothing but encounter sin and its effects. So the understanding you gave of God concerning His relationship to sin must have another explanation.

And He made us alive so we would discover our sinfulness.

Then He gave sorrow so we would confess it. He also gave hearing so we would hear the gospel and believe. I've laid this out for you from Acts 2:37. It's all included.

I realize this isn't likely to alter your perspective. But your understanding has spiritually dead people understanding spiritual reality apart from the Spirit.

Your right,

But God seeks after the world. and he can change them,, He did that to me.. It took over a year. but he kept coming.

Saying a person can not of their own free will call out for salvation is to deny the love, righteousness and holiness of God.

That's not what I said.

Here is what I said again...


As far as our salvation?

Once you choose to believe in Jesus Christ?
Then you are His Property! He seals us with the Spirit.
You can not lose salvation once its entered into!


God can not be robbed of what He has purchased!

Jesus said that God will lose no one who believes in Him!



When being presented the Gospel, God's power of grace makes the hearer's soul free to reject it as well as to accept *freely.*.
How is he made free to do so? For, with the sin nature locked up and silenced by grace, then its our choice is from our soul
alone and not dominated by the tyranny of our sin nature which never would allow anyone to believe!

That is why God's grace makes that one who rejects to be without excuse!
For with grace being applied no one can blame it on their fallen state!
Grace makes it so one can't blame it on the sin nature if you reject!
Their soul wanted to reject just like Satan and his angels wanted to!

grace and peace ..................

Agreed 100%

Its called grace, Given to all men.

Again, The wage of sin is death.

By law (temporal or spiritual it does not matter) Someone can not then be made alive UNTIL the wage is paid in full. or redeemed, This is called justification.

You can;t have a person made alive still under the penalty of sin.


Romans 1 says we know already.


Your interpretation of Acts 2 is flawed. as I already laid out.

1. This is your perspective
2. You still have shown no prove anyone thinks they come to faith apart from Gods help.

I would say the opposite is true, if by "free will" you mean the spiritually dead can free make a decision to believe the gospel and repent of their sins prior to the new birth (or "birth from above") as some prefer to call it. How can the natural, unregenerate, evil heart filled with sinful desires "call out for salvation" when that heart is at enmity with God!?

Romans 1 says we can know God exists through creation and conscience. It does not say that this understanding is sufficient to recognize our need for salvation nor how to attain it. He does not understand spiritual things. Romans 1 is sufficient to make man accountable, but does nothing to meet his need.

Your understanding of the natural man's estate has him understanding the spiritual activity that you agreed that God must do in his life without the ability to understand what God is doing which must come first, yet somehow after that has happened he is able to understand enough to believe. You have the same natural man both understanding and not understanding spiritual activity.

Romans 1: 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

How can the natural, unregenerate, evil heart filled with sinful desires "call out for salvation" when that heart is at enmity with God!?

Romans 1: 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

1. It says they suppress the truth. it does not say they do not know it.

19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

2. It says the things of God are fully understood by men. That would include not only his wrath, but his love and forgiveness..

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

3. God allowed them to live in sin
4. THEY exchanged the truth for the lie. God did not keep the truth from them

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions

5. God also allowed to them have their vile passions, Again, He allowed it, he did not keep the truth from them as you insist

and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

6. They recieve the penalty they were due (all sinners are do, who hide and suppress the truth..

32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

7. They know the righteous judgment of God. Again, God does not keep the truth from them, THEY KNOW.

Thats why they HAVE NO EXCUSE.

Your giving them an excuse.. saying they have no ability to know



Concerning the gospel. Everyone can understand the gospel. that's why God said they have no excuse.

Because God calls them to him.

How can a righteous judge make someone the penalty of sin and make them alive while still UNDER the penalty of sin (death?

That is what goes against Gods judgment righteousness and holiness

C. People Are Elect in Christ's Spiritual Body, the Church.
Passages
Ephesians 1:3-14 - Paul is addressing the elect in Christ. But the rest of the book refers to them as the church, the body of Christ - this is the theme of the book.

1:22,23 - Jesus is head of the church, His body.

2:13,16 - To be reconciled "in Christ" is to be reconciled in His body or household (v19), the temple of the Lord (v21,22).

3:10,11 - We are predestined according to God's purpose (1:11), but His eternal purpose is revealed in the church.

5:22-33 - Jesus is Head and Savior of the body, having loved it and gave Himself to sanctify and cleanse it. Note that it is a body or group that is destined to be saved. [Cf. 3:21; 4:4,16

1 Peter 2:9,10 - The ones "chosen" or elected are a race, a nation, a priesthood, a people. We are chosen as a body, a group, the church.

Note the circumstances of those in the church.
Acts 20:28 - Jesus purchased the church with His blood.

Acts 2:47 - All the saved are added to the body (church) by the Lord.

Clearly the church is the elect, those destined to be saved. [Matt. 16:18]

But how does one enter the church?
1 Peter 1:22,23 - The elect (1:1,2; 2:9) are those who "purified your souls" in obedience to the truth and so were born again - born into God's family, the church (1 Tim. 3:15)

1 Corinthians 12:13 - We are baptized into the one body.

Acts 2:38,41,47 - When we repent and are baptized, we receive remission and are added by the Lord to the church.

So, from eternity, God knew there would be people willing to obey Him. He purposed to establish the church (Eph. 3:10,11) as the body that would contain all saved people (5:23,25). These would be His special people, the elect (1:3-14). This body He decreed to be destined for eternal glory (1:3-14).

However, each individual has been given by God the power to choose to meet the conditions to enter that body or not enter. Once in the body, each has the power to continue faithful and receive the reward or to fall away and be lost (these will be removed from the body before it enters glory - Matt. 13:41-43; Rev. 17:14; 2 Peter 1:10).

II. The Sovereignty of God
Since God is the absolute, all-powerful ruler of the Universe, it is argued that He must absolutely govern everything that happens on earth (see quotes from Westminster Confession). This means He must personally choose whether or not each individual will be saved. The decision must be completely His, and no one else can determine the outcome. To say that man has a choice is to deny the absolute sovereignty of God. [Eph. 1:11; Rom. 8:28; 11:36; 1 Chron. 29:11; 1 Tim. 6:15; Psalm 115:3; Isaiah 46:10]

Response: There is no doubt that God has the sovereign right to do whatever He wills to do. The question is: What is it that God has willed to do? Has God chosen to unconditionally determine the eternal destiny of each individual, or has He chosen to offer salvation to all men and give each man the choice whether or not to accept based on conditions? If God is truly sovereign, then if He wishes, He has the right to give man the power to choose!

A. Has God Ever Granted Anyone the Right to Choose Anything?
If God has ever granted anyone the right to choose anything, then it would not violate His sovereignty to give man the right to choose salvation.
Calvinists admit that Adam had the right to choose whether or not to obey God. If so, then God's sovereignty is not violated simply because He gives man the power to choose. Why then would it violate His sovereignty to give us also the right to choose?

If man never has the right to choose about anything, then God must have decided to make man (and Satan) sinners!
If God's sovereignty means He has decreed everything about men, and we have no choice about anything, then He must have decreed that Adam and all men must commit sin. This means God is responsible for the fact men commit sin and suffer the consequences. Man had no choice. We are all sinners because God chose for us all to become sinners.

Yet God hates sin and commands men not to sin (Prov. 15:9; 6:16,17; etc.). So the consequence of Calvinism is that God decreed that man must do the very thing God hates and commands men not to do. God is therefore divided against Himself (Matt. 12:25; 1 Cor. 1:13; 14:33). How can they avoid the charge that their view makes God hypocritical?

Illustration: Calvinism makes God like a father who commands his son not to go in the street, and if he goes, the father will spank him. Then the father carries the son into the street and spanks him for going there!

B. There Is a Difference Between What God Unconditionally Decrees and What He Chooses to Permit.
God is the absolute ruler of the Universe. But this does not deny His right to give men the power to choose.

God unconditionally decrees that some things must come to pass.
In this case, His decree must come to pass, and no one can change it. [1 Chron. 29:11; 1 Tim. 6:15; Psa 115:3; 33:11; Job 23:13; Isaiah 14:27; 46:9,10; Prov. 21:30]

Yet the Scriptures teach that God has decreed to allow men (and Satan) to have the power to choose and make some decisions.
Consider some examples:

* God does not tempt man to sin (James 1:13). Yet man faces temptation. Why? Because God permits Satan (within limits) to tempt man (Job 1). [Note 2 Cor. 4:4; John 12:31]

* God hates sin and commands men not to practice it (see above). Yet sin exists. God is not the source of it, else He is not righteous but contradicts Himself and forces men to do what He Himself hates!

The truth is that God gave man the power to choose to obey or disobey, having warned them of the consequences. Having decreed that man has the power to choose, God respects His own decree and permits His creatures to choose, even when those choices displease God.

* In the same way, God has decreed (as shown in the Scriptures already studied) that man has the power to choose whether or not to obey His conditions of forgiveness and thereby become one of His elect.

No, man is not free to do absolutely anything we want (can we destroy God?). God has placed limits on us, but one thing He has granted us is the power to obey Him or not. This is not a violation of God's sovereignty, nor is it weakness on His part, for He is the one who decreed that man has this power!

Do you deny that a sovereign God could give man the power to choose?
If God is truly sovereign, then He can decree whatever He chooses. If so, then He can decree that man has the power to choose! If you deny this, then it is you, not us, who deny the sovereignty of God!

The question is not whether or not God is sovereign. The question is: What did the sovereign God decide to do? The Bible says God decreed to give man the power to choose whether or not to obey. This is what it means for "all things" to work according to His purpose.

C. God's Sovereign Government Is Controlled by His Will and Character.
God must act in harmony with His own will.
Man can never limit God, but God can and often does limit what He does according to His will. He may choose not to exercise certain powers He possesses in order to accomplish some higher purpose.

The consequence of Calvinism is that God acts in ways that are contrary to His own revealed will. He says that man can choose whether to obey or disobey Him and that salvation is for all and that there are conditions everyone can meet to be saved (as shown in preceding Scriptures). However, Calvinism says none of this is true, we have no choice, etc.

God must act according to His character
There are some things God cannot do because they would violate His character.

* God cannot lie - Titus 1:2

* God cannot sin (He is always righteous) - 2 Chron. 19:7

* God cannot deny Himself - 2 Tim. 2:13

* God cannot change - Hebrews 13:8

The consequence of Calvinism is that God continually acts contrary to His character. He hates evil, yet He decrees that men practice evil. He cannot lie, yet He says things in the Bible that are not true, etc.

We're not going to agree whether I go through verse by verse or not. Thanks for the discussion.

I believe there is really good faith here, I believe you are a good brother at heart, and.im starting to appreciate you,

I have a question.

What are your thoughts on once your baptised in Jesus name for the forgiveness of sins,. It is only then that you've have entered into the new covenant.

Acts 2:37-39

New International Version



37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

as you can see here, and I don't know why I have not seen it before.

but here it states, Gods promise is to call those even far of, ?

we see God will call far of people to him, to be baptised,for 2 reason for remissions of sins and to receive the gift of the holy spirit.

on this note would you say this is done to enter the far off into the new covenant. 🤔

Have you never heard about the POWER of the Gospel? Which is actually "THE POWER OF GOD"? For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16),

And that is why we have Romans chapter 10. And then Romans concludes with this: 25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my Gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Have you never heard of "the obedience of faith" which is obedience to the Gospel? It is simply amazing how the Calvinists have such utter disregard for the power of the Gospel. Which is to be preached to THE NATURAL MAN. If the natural man already had the gift of the Holy Spirit, why would he need the Gospel?

if you keep giving him unmerited favours,.it wouldn't make a difference either 😆😂😋

Only God can give that based on his sacrifice.
But you think you have to earn it.. So it would make a difference either..