Predestination is misunderstood...

Sometimes I wonder if people even read my posts. This would be one such time.
Grace and peace.

Because I was responding to your erroneous remark that it had nothing to do with physical hearing. If those present couldn't physically hear what Jesus was saying, then they could not be held accountable. You fail to recognise that I have repeatedly, and I repeat, repeatedly said grace is the mechanism by which we are enabled to see and hear the truth but the response we make to the truth is our response, no-one else's. God gives us faith through the word of the Gospel but the ability to believe is within us by His design. If it were not so there could be no response on our part and consequently no judgement could be made upon us.

You said from the get go that we have to be regenerated (made spiritually alive) in order to believe. If that is so, then it is God's fault certain men do not believe because He failed to regenerate them. He cannot hold them responsible (response able) for what is impossible for them to do.

Strewth!

If human nature (which is derived from our soul) buy it's very design was depraved as you contend then not only have you accused God of creating evil (He alone creates our soul, doesn't come from our parents), you have also made it impossible for any of us to be saved.

Evil is rejecting truth and replacing it with a lie and it is out from this we commit sins. If our souls were against the Spirit of God in the same manner as our flesh, it would be impossible to believe the truth. Our souls would be in a constant state of rejection even with grace. He would have to lock away every soul eternally and not just those who have rejected Him from their own free will (made possible by grace).

Paul could not have willed to do the good if his soul was depraved in the same manner as his flesh. He agreed with the Law but couldn't do it because of the flesh (sin nature) constantly keeping him locked into a state of depravity.

I have discussed this at length with @Cameron143 how the soul becomes depraved but is not by nature depraved. You can go find those posts because I'm not repeating it all over again.

This Is no way to talk to a brother.

I never said it didn't include physical hearing. I said it wasn't simply physical hearing. So the actual error was in either your misreading or misunderstanding what I wrote.
I also never said anything against grace at any time. But grace, like love requires action to be made manifest. God is love, but if He doesn't send His Son we won't experience His love. Likewise, God is gracious, but we won't understand this unless that grace produces faith in us. And grace isn't the mechanism; faith is. That's what through faith means.
Your welcome to continue in the conversation, but I would appreciate you accurately reflecting what I am actually saying.

I don't think he cares much about your appreciation brother.

But I wouldn't let it bother you,..

Just wipe the dust of your feet.

You will be fine. 😊

I'm hardly bothered, but it's hard to move forward if one has to correct for things that haven't been said.

I did read the post I was responding to.

What I think I missed was one aspect you covered concerning progressive imparted righteousness, which can be referred to as the ongoing process of sanctification.... When that happens God takes over more and more of our thinking and actions...

But when we believed in Christ?
That one work (which the Greek indicates becomes locked in time forever) is counted to us for imputed Righteousness.
That imputed righteousness awaits the absolute imparted Righteousness which can only take place in the Resurrection of believers.
Once resurrected? From then on all we do and say will be righteous. I becomess the ultimate and final sanctification.

We agree.

What grace can cause in us to become imparted righteousness (progressive sanctification) is God's righteousness shining through us, and not a righteousness of our own....

how the soul becomes depraved but is not by nature depraved. You can go find those posts because I'm not repeating it all over again.

Here are clear Scripture to show the we are at the very beginning of life depraved until we accept Christ who makes us Alive in Him.

"Psalm 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

"Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

"2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

"3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

1. Among them: Paul includes himself, highlighting that this was the natural, universal state for all of humanity. No one is exempt.
2. Lusts of our flesh and desires of the flesh and of the mind: This refers to the sinful tendencies and cravings that arise from our human nature. These encompass both physical appetites and internal desires that run contrary to God's will.

and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

1. By nature: This emphasizes that our inherited sinful nature was the root cause of our actions, not simply external pressures.
2. Children of wrath: This phrase paints a picture of our deserving God's judgment and the inevitable separation from Him due to sin.
3. Even as the rest: No exceptions existed. All humanity shared this condemned state.

"5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved"

1. Even when we were dead in sins: This stark image describes the spiritual state of humanity before receiving God's grace. We weren't just morally flawed; we were spiritually dead - separated from God and unable to save ourselves.
2. Hath quickened us together with Christ: The word "quickened" means "made alive." God, through His grace, brought us to spiritual life in union with Jesus Christ. This refers to our spiritual rebirth or regeneration.
3. (by grace ye are saved): This parenthetical phrase emphasizes the unmerited and unearned nature of our salvation. We didn't work for it or deserve it; it is a free gift from God based on His loving kindness.

"Romans 5:12: "Therefore, as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—”

1. Through one man: Refers to Adam, the first human created by God.
2. Sin came into the world: Adam's disobedience in the Garden of Eden introduced sin into the world, breaking the perfect relationship between God and humanity.
3. Death through sin: Adam's sin resulted in both spiritual and physical death. Spiritual death refers to separation from God, and physical death is the eventual cessation of bodily functions.
4. Death spread to all men: Adam's sin had consequences beyond himself; all humanity inherited a fallen, sinful nature.
5. Because all sinned: The consequence of sinful nature is that all individuals also commit personal sins throughout their lives.

People have very narrow minds when they don't seek the lord,

You see this mentality a lot.

Even from what appears to be every knowledgeable people, I'm leaning towards people grow in the meat of the word, before they've learned to walk

They've clearly forgotten there milk, or never had it.

But is there any need for all this heavy handed behaviour.

Where Just discussing our views,

It's just annoys me how so many people put the God that you have faith in, into a box, and there prepared to spill blood and cut a brother up in half to win an argument.

I really dont mind any denomination 😊

There all labels to me.

The true label is the new covenant,

And all are called to walk in it by The father 😋

Patting yourself on the back is not a logical argument that supports your opinions.

Neither is denigrating people a means of grace.

But I have said all along that without grace at work we would all be oblivious to anything God has to say and yet you constantly respond as if hearing the word is something we do all on our own apart from God. The very fact that men can know God exists and yet reject Him (Rom.1) or that men can hear the Gospel and accept Him (Acts 10) is the manifestation of grace because without grace we could not know a thing. Yet, you keep insisting it requires grace to do more than making the truth perspicuous, it must also regenerate a person before they can believe what is said. Faith is the result of believing the Gospel (along with regeneration) because this is what God has promised to do if (maybe you will, maybe you won't) believe.

You keep putting things backwards. You don't have faith and then understand the truth. Faith comes from the word. (Rom.10:17), the word is truth. You believe on the word and then you have faith. Truth produces faith, not faith producing truth. And that holds equally true after you are saved not just at the moment of salvation. Knowing what the word of truth is to believe comes about by means of His grace making the word clear to our minds. This is the ministry of God the Spirit. We understand God is gracious by grace through faith. It is the principle that undergirds all the ways in which we may be saved. Always grace comes first.


Then kindly practice what you preach because I'm tired of repeating the same concepts over and over. No-one hears the word of God to accept or reject apart from an act of grace on God's part.

At the moment of birth where is that depravity? In our flesh that came from our parents? Or in our soul that came from God?

In biblical theology, both the physical and spiritual aspects of a person are affected by sin. The "depravity" mentioned can be understood as affecting the whole person, both in flesh (physical nature) and in soul (spiritual nature), as humanity's fallen condition impacts all aspects of our being. This condition is not so much about the physical transmission of sin through biological means (from parents) or the direct creation of a sinful soul by God, but rather the spiritual state of humanity as a whole due to the Fall.

Ezekiel 18:20, "The soul who sins shall die," emphasizes personal responsibility for sin, indicating that each individual's actions and choices contribute to their moral and spiritual state.

..

Affected by sin because the flesh of the unregenerate person dominates over the soul!
The soul is not the source of that dominance. The soul was its slave, not the slave master.

We are no longer to be slaves to sin because our body/flesh was crucified with Christ!

They degenerate everyone because they think there saved by a unmerited favour.

There not saved by a favour, there saved by God's Good will


The laughable part is, the same people argue your saved by a favour, then argue your not saved By an act of works.

I believe these people are degenerating a lot of things

Don't talk to your brother like this,
Cameron always put the emphasis on God saving you and not himself.

This is disrespectful, especially when Cameron is very patient in replying to criticism, and has always shown respect in disagreement.

Which not many can say here.

Hes a kind caring person, and and it's good to care about yourself, patting yourself is not wrong.

I Guess you where trying to provoke