Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

It all happens the same time the moment you hear the Gospel.

Tell me something. do you believe the Reformed doctrine over what Jesus, John, Peter, and Paul said?

You haven't proved anything. I don't see in the above passage where it says God sent his Son into the world to die for each and every person. You, sir, are reading that into the text. You're assuming that the term "world" is used in the universal sense, correct? Well, then let's run with that assumption for a moment. How would you reconcile Jn 3:16 which you think is saying that God loves each and every person in the world with numerous other passages that teach just the opposite, i.e. God hates sinners!? If your interpretation is correct, then we have more than a few contradictions in scripture.

Also, the offer and the extent of atonement are two separate issues; for many are externally called (made the offer) but few are chosen (Mat 22:14). It is eminently more logical that Christ died for the few who where known by the Father and chosen by Him in eternity, and not for all who were merely externally called who he knew in eternity would never accept his offer. Why would Christ die for those he NEVER KNEW in eternity (Mat 7:23)? This is patently absurd.

And I have not missed the supernatural, salvific, effectual power of God -- because without this kind of power no one could be saved. It is the Arminian camp that diminishes that power and makes God's will contingent on his creatures' wills, and makes the creature more powerful than the Creator since he's able to overcome God's resurrection power. In the Arminian scheme the creature is sovereign and more powerful than God.

Further in Arminianism the Christian believer most certainly has something to boast in, doesn't he? After all, what makes the Arminian believer different than his unbelieving counterpart? The believer's superior will power? The believer's superior intellect? The believer's superior wisdom? Of what do you boast in, sir? It can't be in God or the Cross or Christ because the Arminian believes that our eternal fate, our eternal destiny rests utlimtately in our own choices, correct? God sends no one to hell; unbelievers send themselves! AND God forces no one to believe the Gospel, so all Arminian believers had to FREELY make that decision for themselves, right? The Arminians certainly have much boast in, don't they?

As stated yesterday, I would repost my New Birth Analogy here that I posted on another thread. However, I did revise it some by including more scripture references than previously, and I edited out my specif reply to a poster on that thread.


As stated yesterday, there is a strong analogy between physical and spiritual birth. Please note these parallels:

1. Just as physical birth requires two people of the opposite sex to procreate, likewise scripture teaches that God's elect are born of the Spirit and the Word (Jn 1:13; 3:5-6; 6:63; Tit 3:5; 1Jn 3:9; 4:7; Eph 5:26-27; 1Pet 1:22-25).

2. The source of all Wisdom is God. The three persons of the Godhead are always spoken of in the masculine gender. And God's Wisdom is revealed to the world in his Word, and Wisdom itself is spoken of in the feminine gender (Prov 1:20-21); also the noun "truth" itself is in the same gender.

3. Just as a man and a woman are different from each other physically, likewise so the Spirit and the Word differ. The Holy Spirit is a living personality graciously bestowed upon God's elect and subjectively experienced by all believers in time and space (Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; Jn 16:8-11), whereas [Gospel] Truth is objectively revealed to all in the holy scriptures but only received by those who have been made alive by the Spirit.

4. In John 3, The Holy Spirit is likened to the wind by Jesus, as He mysteriously and secretly goes hither and tither as he sovereignly wills. Conversely, God's objective Truth is either sought out by the sons of men as the Spirit leads them, or by us "pillars of the truth" as we seek out unbelievers, as He leads us, so that we can reveal Gospel Truth to them.

5. Physical life begins at conception, concealed in the woman's womb -- that life not being revealed to the world until many months later when actual birth takes place. Likewise, everyone us, whether we realize it or not, have had our own personal "on the road to Damascus" conversion experience, whether that experience was so subtle and nuanced that it went undetected (or virtually so) by us, or whether we had a more dramatic experience along the lines of the apostle Paul whereby we were more acutely aware of our conversion. Who can say that a believer cannot be conceived of the Spirit some time before he came to faith, and that the Spirit wasn't "concealed" in us until such time that we manifested our spiritual birth to the world by our confession of sin to God and confession of faith to the Gospel truth to the world? Many of us could have been spiritually alive as concealed "embryos" up until the time of our profession of faith in the Truth, at which time our spiritual birth was initially revealed to the outside world, as well as to ourselves. We very likely moved spiritually from the stage of "embryo" to "fetus" to a "babe in Christ" to maturity -- keeping mind that even at the initial stage we were made alive! Spiritual Life begins at conception, just as it does physically! The New Birth, on the other hand, is the ultimate manifestation of that Life to the world as our testimony to God's grace.

Finally, in regard to this analogy, I think Cornelius in Acts 10 makes for a highly interesting and intriguing case study that raises more than a few questions.

But it does not follow logically that Christ died for every man on the planet, including the vast majority who never come to Christ.

But universal terms are quite often USED in speech in a limited sense. We must determine their usage by the three-fold context of scripture: Immediate, Intermediate (the book in which any given passage is found) and the Macro (any other book outside the passage under consideration).

I take it that you believe that Jn 3:16 is teaching that God loves each and every person in the world?

I agree God loves the "world" -- just not every single person in it; for numerous scriptures teach that this same God also hates sinners. And sinners, too, are part of the world, are they not? How are you going to reconcile your interpretation with this fact?

Also, you have to understand how the original audience of John's would have understood "world". John was writing primarily to Jews, so how would have the Jews of the first century understood the term "world"? Do you know? I do.

It's simply your opinion that I haven't proved anything. If you don't understand that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ (Himself God) doesn't apply to everyone, there is nothing I can say to convince you.

BTW, why do you think that Scripture contradicts itself? Is God confused, according to you?

Do you really believe that the sacrifice of God's Son, who is God Himself, is only partially effective??? That is
is patently absurd.

Are you serious? Which people, in your opinion, are not included in "the world"? Do you think that there are aliens among us?

Well then, your own bolded words above condemn you for doublespeak! You truly want the Atonement both ways, don't you!? Christ died for all; yet at the same time his atonement doesn't apply to all.

And, no, God is not confused. But you are. You are, evidently, oblivious to the fact that numerous words in scripture are USED in multiple ways. Do you doubt this?

And to answer your last question, scripture teaches his atonement is totally, 100% effective for all the elect for whom he specifically died -- for all God chose in eternity to be his people. Eminently logical. And no doublespeak involved!

No, but plenty of sinners who God hates. How's that for starters? And do you doubt this truth, as well?

If you don't understand salvation, that is NOT my problem.

So when John wrote that God loves the world, he was mistaken and you are not? Seriously? You have a real problem!

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

- John 6:44-45,47

There is life eternal for every man that comes to Christ.

I agree. I'm not the problem. You are, but you cannot see it. Why didn't you answer my question about word usage? Do you doubt that many words have multiple uses in scripture?

No, you are mistaken. How many times do you need to be told this? God cannot possibly love each and every person in the the world, while at the same time he hates the sinners of the world. Do you doubt that God hates sinners?

No, you are mistaken. How many times do you need to be told this? God cannot possibly love each and every person in the the world, while at the same time he hates the sinners of the world. Do you doubt that God hates sinners?

You cant hear the Gospel Spiritually without being born again, regenerated. Faith is fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

Is there something that you don't understand about John 3:16? Are you that blind?

"For God SO LOVED THE WORLD... That's what it says. I believe God's written word, not your opinion. If you can't figure it out, that is not my problem; it's yours.