"You will be held responsible for the murder of all godly people . . ."

Another reason for this being a difficult passage for me to grasp is because of the following:

Acts 2:23 NLT - "But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed. With the help of lawless Gentiles, you nailed him to a cross and killed him."

I've been studying the Story of God in a timeline, chronological manner for years and it seems to me that Acts 2:23 sums up the Bible nicely. See what I mean? If the Lord has always had an Eternal Plan, which Paul spoke about extensively, and if the people of that Day did what God intended them to do, how could Jesus hold those rulers and authorities responsible?

It's an interesting Bible we have.

I wouldn't think of it as a race.We are all still learning a little here and a little there.

I would like to share a verse very similar to the verse you quoted.The verse is from Revelation.

Mathew 23
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Revelation 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Sure. It would be helpful to read Matthew 23. Jesus is giving the Pharisees the what for concerning their hypocrisy. In verse 28 he points out their hypocrisy concerning holiness. He makes the point that the Pharisees do the things that make them outwardly appear clean, but are not so inwardly. The rest of the chapter finds Jesus exemplifying this point. They suppose themselves to be different from their fathers who killed the prophets because they built monuments for them and maintain them. And yet their generation will shortly be responsible for killing the Prophet, proving they are even worse than their fathers.
If you remember the story of the landowner who purchased the vineyard and went away and left some in charge to care for the property. When the landowner sent His servants to receive the revenues from the harvest, they were beaten and killed. Finally, He sends His Son, for surely they will respect Him. They do not, but kill Him as well. The story ends with...what do you suppose the landowner will do when He returns?
Killing Jesus was the measure that was filled that caused the landowner to return. What happened in 70AD was what the landowner did when He returned.

Exactly! But how did they get this way? Was this lack of understanding of their own accord, or did the Lord put Israel into a deep sleep Himself? Of course, Scriptures are abundantly clear that Israel was simply unable to obey, therefore, how could these rulers and authorities be held responsible for all murdered Prophets?

And this is the context of the Bible, which is that the Jews were held in captivity, both physical and Spiritually. One of the primary purposes for keeping Israel in this deep sleep is to ensure that they rejected God's Plan of Salvation, that the Gentiles would then be included. Paul tells us in Ephesians 1 and 3 that this the hidden, Eternal, Mysterious Plan of God. All that had taken place was according to the Plan of God.

Because of these things, this is why I struggle with the idea that the rulers and authorities of the day were to be responsible.

There is a hidden, underlying message that we are missing. This OP concept is a pattern of something else . . . and that is what I am trying to understand.

What do you think, good sir?

Good call. I was thinking about that particular murder for which they were obviously guilty. But to extend this responsibility all the way back to the first Prophet, Abel? This doesn't make Spiritual sense to me. Worldly responsibility is one thing, but Spiritual responsibility is something that I fail to grasp. This idea doesn't fit Scripturally to the degree that I am wondering if there is a hard translation error that seems to span the translations extant today.

Hey thank you!

Yes, very familiar with Matt 23 and the Parable of the Vinyard Workers. I just wrote articles about them both. I still don't grasp how this translates into the religious rulers of the day being responsible for Abel, for example. Cain has a role in there somewhere, after all, he was punished. And we can go even deeper by looking at the example of Paul as he described his pre-Transformed life in Romans 7. He said that when he was out persecuting Christians, and living the life of a hypocritical Pharisee, all the sin that he committed . . . it wasn't himself. He made it clear that it was the sinful state of his heart that was causing him to think and act as he did. Of course, he was describing his unknown relationship with the Devil, for Saul was held captive by him to do his evil will.

Humans serve, and that is the essence of our human Nature. If our Spiritual Father is the Devil, it'll be obvious in how we treat others. If our Spiritual Father is God Almighty, that too is made evident by how we treat others. But it isn't us that is working through ourselves, but it is God working His Will through us, and it is the same for the masses who unknowingly remain under the control of the Devil.

These things above are the utter core of the Bible. These problems are the Purpose for which Christ was sent to Earth. His Work is to Purify and Redeem, and the Effect of His Spiritual Work is freedom; it is a changed heart, produced by the Spirit of God, which can only lead to Transformation. Obviously, the rulers and authorities did not have their hearts prepared to receive Christ, for they rejected the Baptism of John, and of course, they rejected the Baptism of Jesus's Disciples, too. That goes without saying. And Paul explains even further, that all of Israel, except a few whom God had chosen, remained in their deep Spiritual sleep. They couldn't possibly respond. And more, Scripture tells us that all that took place regarding Jesus was based upon a pre-arranged Plan, and one that is Eternal, we might add.

The Story of God is simply unbelievable. Anyway, based upon the core message of the Bible as outlined above, to blame the rulers and authorities of the Day just doesn't fit. We USED to see this concept presented until Ezekiel 18, which is the chapter that clearly declares that the one who sins is the one who dies. No longer will the sins of one man be placed onto the family up to the fourth generation. That ended long ago. So, do you see what I mean? These things that I have offered are directly and clearly related to the OP. Unfortunatley, I don't think that there is an answer that can be quite as direct and clear. But, I've been wrong many times before.

Thank you!

Are you implying that there might be a contradiction? I think it would be talking about two different things.

It's incredible, but I might see it that way because of my sinful nature, maybe it is truly horrible. From my understanding God made hosts and hosts of angels in the beginning, they all must have known life to be very good at the beginning because that is how God made it, yet to my understanding a third might have rebelled at this point including the Devil. They somehow reached a point in themselves where that is what they wanted to do. God made them all knowing what each one would do but is still not responsible for what they did. For that to be possible each one would have had to somehow come to the decision of wanting to rebel starting at a point of complete innocence and holiness with no blame being possible for God. God ostensibly made everything to continue a certain way, which was impossible to happen because of what individual angels wanted to do, but he would have known ahead of time which angels would rebel and which angels would not rebel, Jesus making each angel to be a certain way knowing exactly what would happen with them. Some angels are referred to as elect because they will not rebel, the other angels were destined to rebel, literally because that's what that individual angel would definitely do given the circumstances they would be facing, and still God is not responsible. That's how perfect and good God's plan was for life and each angel might have had intuitive knowledge of it (I'm just hypothesizing here, I don't know this for certain) sort of like we have the intuitive ability to breathe when we're born. Everything was very good and would have presumably continued that way as God wanted and intended, but still certain angels rebelled. Everything was still very good even though God made every angel knowing that some were going to want to rebel and did not want them to do so, every angel was what they were like at some point in a state of holiness and at that point it was very good and some still rebelled. God could make things in such a way that he both knew and planned that certain angels would rebel but did not want them to, that's how perfect in character each angel was and how perfect what God wanted was, but still some rebelled and God is not responsible even though they were made knowing that they would rebel, those angels weren't made differently so they wouldn't they were all made how they were made with the definite plan of a rebellion happening even though it wasn't wanted, and still everything was perfect with something being transgressed upon at some point.

Romans 9:22-23 (KJV)
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

It's sort of similar for us, if what Paul is suggesting here is true. God has a plan, to show his wrath, so that vessels of mercy (those who believe in Jesus) can know his glory. Everyone is individually responsible for their own actions, God is perfect, what he intended must have been perfect, every angel was made in a perfect manner, they were all holy when they were created and God must have wanted things to continue after how things were made for something to have been transgressed upon, logically that is what he wanted to happen though it was not possible because of what individual angels wanted to do. We are all doing what we want to do, we're responsible for our actions even if we have a sinful nature, we're the ones doing it. God has a plan for everything though which includes our sinful nature. He can plan for something to happen through sinful means and we are still the ones responsible without him having any blame for the sin that occurred.

Like I posted earlier .The word generation can have several meanings .Cain who killed Able and the Pharisees may have the same father.Of the same stock so to speak.

John 8:45
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.



Word: genea
Pronounce: ghen-eh-ah'
Strongs Number: G1074
Orig: from (a presumed derivative of) 1085; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons):--age, generation, nation, time. G1085
Use: TDNT-1:662,114 Noun Feminine
Heb Strong: H410 H1755 H2233 H2567 H3117 H3211 H4940 H5971 H7256 H8029

1. 1) fathered, birth, nativity
   2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
   2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
   2b) metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
   2b1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation
   3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
   4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied by each successive generation), a space of 30-33 years

Give it another year or two and they will be killing the prophets sent to them to warn them to repent and not take the mark of the beast.Some people never change,not even after thousands of years.

because sin has a measure just as faith has a measure, first the shoot then the head and the full head. Israel's sin had reached the full head and ugly it was too in God's eyes, full ripe for harvest.

... our generation too is come to the full head and is ripe unto harvest. For the Jews this fulness of wickedness manifested in rejecting Christ, for our generation it will manifest in rejection of the church.

absolutely, it has ALWAYS been wrong for the church to be anti-Jew ... a sin in fact.

I think its more the other way around.
Jews in Jerusalem tend to be more anti-christ than anyone.Hence ,Jesus statement of Jews killing the prophets he will send to them.

Mathew 23:34
Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.


The last 3.5 years before Christ comes will be pretty bad for the saints in Israel from what I've read in the bible.

“Exactly! But how did they get this way? Was this lack of understanding of their own accord, or did the Lord put Israel into a deep sleep Himself? “

He put a spirit of blindness and sadness on then because they were rebellious at heart and wouldn’t obey it wasn’t arbitrary thier constant offense is what provoked his wrath and made them the object of wrath God didn’t arbitrarily choose then for that purpose it was how they responded to him

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:34-35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He is blaming them for what’s going to happen they wouldn’t respond to those he sent instead they rejected and killed them he doesn’t make idle threats all those warnings about what they were doing and not repenting had finally come to pass Jesus was explaining that to them

It’s this coming to pass

“And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. ( he said this about 700 bc)

Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭6:9-11‬ ‭

its the abomination committed by them that brought desolation to thier covenant

It’s because they wouldn’t respond to him

“But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭3:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“He said furthermore unto me, Son of man, seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from my sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations. And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here. So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about. And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up. Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, The LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath forsaken the earth. Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭8:6, 9-12, 15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

everything that happened to then was because they rejected the lords words to them beforehand

They weren't actually responsible. It's an indictment of Jewish leadership throughout history, and culminating in the death of Christ. They simply are the last generation under the old covenant and have committed the greatest offense. Thus, the full weight of God's wrath is upon them.

Thank you for taking the time to write all that you have. I must admit, however, that I don't understand it as it relates to the Bible.

What did stand out, however, is that you believe you are still under the Curse of the Lord, the Curse that includes the Sinful Nature. That is a terrifying admission to make, for you are openly stating that you do not [yet] belong to the Lord. These are not my words, but the words of the Bible. Please don't be mad at me . . . I am only quoting the Bible.

Colossians 2:9-15 NLT - "For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."

Please consider the SEVEN most important verses in the entire Bible. These passages give us a good start toward understanding the Purpose of Christ, the Work of Christ, and the Effect of Christ's Work.

Colossians 2:9-15 is actually at the very "heart" of this thread, and it should be, for the Circumcision of Christ is at the heart of the Bible. And this teaching is the reason for which I LOVE the Blessed Jews, because they were used by God to show the world was sin was all about. God used them like He used the kings of Assyrian and Babylon as His "tools" of judgment.

The Blue Letter Bible website has a timeline, chronological reading plan that helps us to understand the actual Story of God. Studying the Bible in this way completely changed my understanding of God's Word, and what HE desires that we take away from it.

May the Lord grant you the most incredible Blessing, the Promised Blessing given to Abraham, that of a Circumcised Heart.

This "deep sleep" was an additional layer to what they, along with nearly all other humans are born with . . . a Sinful Nature. We know that the Jews were just as corrupt as the Gentiles, proven by how they were under the Law of Moses. Any Jew who has been Purified by Christ [had been] set free of the Law of Moses, for they were set apart from the Law.

Therefore, the Jews could no more obey even without the added layer of "deep sleep." They, like all humans born of a woman's water, were born to trouble as surely as sparks fly upward, as the Scripture states. We know that even children are born under this Curse, for we see many of them born deceased, as well as severely deformed and disabled, something I have witnessed in my own family.

This Curse . . . it is the Purpose of Christ, at least during His First Advent. To Redeem leads us to Christ's Work . . . and this is where "christians" begin their great divide. There are very few Christians in the world who have even considered to think about the entire lot of Spiritual Work of the Father, Son, and Spirit. And because Christians essentially deny the Spiritual Work of Christ, they couldn't possibly agree with the Effect of Christ and His Holy Work.

And yes, this all ties is perfectly with what this thread is about, and why I believe that there is something that we are missing that makes the opening verses logical and reasonable, for that is the kind of God we have.

The KJV reads differently. I was sort of just saying what I was saying about "my sinful nature" based on my own experience and what Paul wrote

Romans 7:14-25 (KJV)

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

In my post I was just making deductions based on what I know from scripture. I've reread it and it might be hard to understand what I intended to get across, but hopefully it got across.

This is, so far, the most clear and reasonable explanation (in my opinion).

That said, I am going to remain open-minded to all ideas. The one thing that I have learned in my years of intense study is . . . I don't know much. The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know.

I think I see what you mean. I would say yes, that there is a massive contradiction between Ezekiel 18 and others being responsible for the sin of others. Ezekiel is incredibly clear on this. In fact, I wish all other doctrines were as clear. ha!

“This "deep sleep" was an additional layer to what they, along with nearly all other humans are born with . . . a Sinful Nature”

the nature of good and evil that we inherited from Adam and Eve the first sinners ? No that’s not the soirit sleep God put upon israel it’s the reason he put that upon them thise uncircumcised hearts of rebellion and idolatry . Because of the sins they committed they were never unable they were unwilling

“You weren’t willing to come to God “ it was never beyond then it was a corruption of thier will by the forbidden knowledge in the beginning

“For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.


I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:11-19‬ ‭

it wasn’t that they weren’t able or God prevented then it was that they freely rejected him of a corrupted Will a sinful and corrupt nature inherited from mankind’s natural mother and father.

seven Adam and Eve rejected his word chose the serpents word and the curse that came with it. God never made Adam inherantly evil , he never willed that Adam eat the fruit or made Adam eat the fruit he warned him not to do it and placed him in Eden with free Will and blessing and dominion and a purpose to work the garden

adam instead followed eves word who followed the serpents word that was contrary to what God said to them “ you will surely die if you eat the fruit “

…” you will not surely die if you eat the fruit God knows it will make you as gods knowing good and evil “

it was always a choice to believe God and live and have a relationship with him with his presence with us or follow the contrary word we hear telling us the opposite and claiming it’s truth

Adam and Eve weren’t unable they rejected what thier Creator and Lord and the one who blessed and chose them and gave them dominion upon earth said to them

and accepted what the subtle and crafty serpent said in order to kill and curse them by Gods word. And cause of them to eat of the knowledge of good and evil mixed together that would certainly cause thier deaths

Ehat God had told then would have kept them safe and alive and blessed and with him . What Satan told them got them cursed and exiled from Eden and his presence they had two forms of o formation opposed and they chose the wrong one

Its always been God telling man the truth to warn us of evil since then since the first born man he tells us what is the right way to go and we do the opposite

“And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a instead of solving the issue through repentance and doing what is right like God told him now cains filled with both good and evil and again he chooses the evil influence and kills his brother to solve the favoritism he has wrongly perceived. And again cain after doing this is exiled from Gods people not because God forced him to reject what he told him but because cain loved the evil in him rather than the good , the flesh rather than the spirit so he chose being corrupt

seven generations into mankind ends the thought that man is inheriantly evil and can’t obey because Enoch walks with God and never dies but instead is translated into Gods eternal kingdom as we find out in Hebrews 11 having obtained a good report from God while he lived being saved by faith having walked with God as Christian’s are called to do

also men like Noah and Abraham who obeyed God men like Daniel and job who obeyed God and no fault eas found even later they are known as three righteous men who could deliver thier own souls

Noah Daniel and job that is mankknd is not incapable of repentance and obedience to God we never have been it was satans lie that we swallowed “ your all not able To obey God and live your just sinners you can’t change “

The gospel annhialates that theory showing us that what makes slaves of men , is the lies of our enemy on the world that oppose his truth it’s all about our belief what we hear and believe becomes our path we need Jesus to be our path

what your saying has merit don’t get me wrong but the gospel changes everything for believers by changing thier perceptions of themselves the world and of God thier Heavenly Father and his Will for them and his provisions for them to be made free in truth