Predestination is misunderstood...

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Stan_the_Man

Stan_the_Man

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sawdust said:
So how does an hour old baby, who has committed no sin, die? And please note, I'm not asking why, I'm asking how. How did Adam's sin cause that little body, many, many millennia later to die? Do you think sin is some sort of virus we all catch at birth?
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God does not count sin against babies, so until one grows to the point where they understand right and wrong God considers them to be without sin.

If original sin is true, then babies are born guilty of sin, totally depraved, destined for eternal punishment. All passages already studied disprove this. Now note specifically:

Psalm 106:37,38; Jeremiah 19:4,5 - In sacrificing babies to idols, people shed the blood of innocent people. But if the babies inherited Adam's sin, they would be guilty and worthy of death. [cf. Jer. 32:35]

Romans 7:9 - Paul (representative of people in general) was alive before sin came, but then he died. How, if people are totally depraved since birth? (cf. v11)

Hebrews 12:9; Zechariah 12:1; Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Our fleshly nature comes from our earthly fathers (like Adam). But God is the Father of our spirits. God gives the spirit and forms it within man.

Total depravity says man is "wholly defiled in ... soul and body." Does the sinless Father in heaven give us wholly defiled, totally depraved spirits? If the spirit comes from God, not from earthly parents, how can we inherit sin from our parents?

Matthew 19:14; 18:3 - The kingdom of God belongs to those who are converted and become like little children. But if little children are totally depraved, why should we become like them? Does conversion make us totally depraved?

Jesus prayed for children and blessed them (Mark 10:14-16), but He did not baptize them. They did not need baptism, because they were acceptable just as they were. But how could this be if they were born total depraved?

The Bible teaches that sinners must be baptized to be saved (Acts 2:38; 22:16; Mark 16:16; 1 Pet. 3:21; Rom. 3:6,4; Gal. 3:26,27).

The consequence of original sin is that babies who die without baptism are all lost eternally. But the Bible teaches that babies are innocent and need no baptism. So original sin is not be true.
 
sawdust

sawdust

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Stan_the_Man said:
God does not count sin against babies, so until one grows to the point where they understand right and wrong God considers them to be without sin.

If original sin is true, then babies are born guilty of sin, totally depraved, destined for eternal punishment. All passages already studied disprove this. Now note specifically:

Psalm 106:37,38; Jeremiah 19:4,5 - In sacrificing babies to idols, people shed the blood of innocent people. But if the babies inherited Adam's sin, they would be guilty and worthy of death. [cf. Jer. 32:35]

Romans 7:9 - Paul (representative of people in general) was alive before sin came, but then he died. How, if people are totally depraved since birth? (cf. v11)

Hebrews 12:9; Zechariah 12:1; Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Our fleshly nature comes from our earthly fathers (like Adam). But God is the Father of our spirits. God gives the spirit and forms it within man.

Total depravity says man is "wholly defiled in ... soul and body." Does the sinless Father in heaven give us wholly defiled, totally depraved spirits? If the spirit comes from God, not from earthly parents, how can we inherit sin from our parents?

Matthew 19:14; 18:3 - The kingdom of God belongs to those who are converted and become like little children. But if little children are totally depraved, why should we become like them? Does conversion make us totally depraved?

Jesus prayed for children and blessed them (Mark 10:14-16), but He did not baptize them. They did not need baptism, because they were acceptable just as they were. But how could this be if they were born total depraved?

The Bible teaches that sinners must be baptized to be saved (Acts 2:38; 22:16; Mark 16:16; 1 Pet. 3:21; Rom. 3:6,4; Gal. 3:26,27).

The consequence of original sin is that babies who die without baptism are all lost eternally. But the Bible teaches that babies are innocent and need no baptism. So original sin is not be true.
Click to expand...
That doesn't answer my question but I'm not surprised. Even those who believe we are born sinners could never answer my question. They could tell me why but never how. So be it.
 
sawdust

sawdust

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Stan_the_Man said:
God does not count sin against babies, so until one grows to the point where they understand right and wrong God considers them to be without sin.

If original sin is true, then babies are born guilty of sin, totally depraved, destined for eternal punishment. All passages already studied disprove this. Now note specifically:

Psalm 106:37,38; Jeremiah 19:4,5 - In sacrificing babies to idols, people shed the blood of innocent people. But if the babies inherited Adam's sin, they would be guilty and worthy of death. [cf. Jer. 32:35]

Romans 7:9 - Paul (representative of people in general) was alive before sin came, but then he died. How, if people are totally depraved since birth? (cf. v11)

Hebrews 12:9; Zechariah 12:1; Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Our fleshly nature comes from our earthly fathers (like Adam). But God is the Father of our spirits. God gives the spirit and forms it within man.

Total depravity says man is "wholly defiled in ... soul and body." Does the sinless Father in heaven give us wholly defiled, totally depraved spirits? If the spirit comes from God, not from earthly parents, how can we inherit sin from our parents?

Matthew 19:14; 18:3 - The kingdom of God belongs to those who are converted and become like little children. But if little children are totally depraved, why should we become like them? Does conversion make us totally depraved?

Jesus prayed for children and blessed them (Mark 10:14-16), but He did not baptize them. They did not need baptism, because they were acceptable just as they were. But how could this be if they were born total depraved?

The Bible teaches that sinners must be baptized to be saved (Acts 2:38; 22:16; Mark 16:16; 1 Pet. 3:21; Rom. 3:6,4; Gal. 3:26,27).

The consequence of original sin is that babies who die without baptism are all lost eternally. But the Bible teaches that babies are innocent and need no baptism. So original sin is not be true.
Click to expand...
I should also point out, I'm not a Calvinist so most of your argument doesn't even sit with me.
 
Stan_the_Man

Stan_the_Man

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sawdust said:
That doesn't answer my question but I'm not surprised. Even those who believe we are born sinners could never answer my question. They could tell me why but never how. So be it.
Click to expand...

I already answered your question - Adam and Eve caused sin to come in to the world which has negative effects on mankind.



sawdust said:
I should also point out, I'm not a Calvinist so most of your argument doesn't even sit with me.
Click to expand...

A lot of people are influenced by the false teachings of calvinism even though they aren't in agreement with calvinism.

Same is true for reformed theology as there are many who agree with tenants of reformed theology even as they claim to not be reformed theology believers.
 
selahsays

selahsays

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sawdust said:
Who were appointed to eternal life, believers or unbelievers? They didn't believe because they were given eternal life. they were given eternal life because they were believers.

The Israelites were given the Law, we have been given the very life of God (eternal life). It is no longer I who live but Christ (who is God) lives in me. The Church age believer has been given more than any other believer from "Adam to John the Baptist".

If people were as evil as you think they are, no-one would be saved.
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Hi, sawdust. I agree with you. They were given eternal life because they were believers before the foundation of the world. And because they were believers, God predestined them to salvation.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

- Ephesians 1:3-4,6,13
 
selahsays

selahsays

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Stan_the_Man said:
I already answered your question - Adam and Eve caused sin to come in to the world which has negative effects on mankind.






A lot of people are influenced by the false teachings of calvinism even though they aren't in agreement with calvinism.

Same is true for reformed theology as there are many who agree with tenants of reformed theology even as they claim to not be reformed theology believers.
Click to expand...
No, it was Satan who brought sin into the world.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Stan_the_Man said:
God does not count sin against babies, so until one grows to the point where they understand right and wrong God considers them to be without sin.

If original sin is true, then babies are born guilty of sin, totally depraved, destined for eternal punishment. All passages already studied disprove this. Now note specifically:

Psalm 106:37,38; Jeremiah 19:4,5 - In sacrificing babies to idols, people shed the blood of innocent people. But if the babies inherited Adam's sin, they would be guilty and worthy of death. [cf. Jer. 32:35]

Romans 7:9 - Paul (representative of people in general) was alive before sin came, but then he died. How, if people are totally depraved since birth? (cf. v11)

Hebrews 12:9; Zechariah 12:1; Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Our fleshly nature comes from our earthly fathers (like Adam). But God is the Father of our spirits. God gives the spirit and forms it within man.

Total depravity says man is "wholly defiled in ... soul and body." Does the sinless Father in heaven give us wholly defiled, totally depraved spirits? If the spirit comes from God, not from earthly parents, how can we inherit sin from our parents?

Matthew 19:14; 18:3 - The kingdom of God belongs to those who are converted and become like little children. But if little children are totally depraved, why should we become like them? Does conversion make us totally depraved?

Jesus prayed for children and blessed them (Mark 10:14-16), but He did not baptize them. They did not need baptism, because they were acceptable just as they were. But how could this be if they were born total depraved?

The Bible teaches that sinners must be baptized to be saved (Acts 2:38; 22:16; Mark 16:16; 1 Pet. 3:21; Rom. 3:6,4; Gal. 3:26,27).

The consequence of original sin is that babies who die without baptism are all lost eternally. But the Bible teaches that babies are innocent and need no baptism. So original sin is not be true.
Click to expand...
Then why do they die? Isn't it sin that brings death?
 
Stan_the_Man

Stan_the_Man

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selahsays said:
they were believers before the foundation of the world.
Click to expand...

One cannot believe or make any other decision for that matter before they are even created or born.

You guys always claim God decided to condemn most people to hell for not reason whatsoever as they had not been created or born yet.

Here's some bible verses that prove limited atonement is not true:


Romans 8:29,30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 1:19-21
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

The Father sovereignly decided to make man in His own Image which is why all men have free will. He said in His Word than we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:29), and we are to be followers of God as dear children (Ephesians 5:1)

God's Word says man is without excuse (Romans 1:20), the grace that brings salvation has come upon all men (Titus 2:11-13)

God's Word says it's not God's will that any perish and He wants all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), and He has commanded men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), and has given every man faith (Romans 12:3)

Jesus said if He be lifted up He would draw all men until Himself (John 12:32), and Jesus has tasted of death for every man (Hebrews 2:9)

In light of all these scriptures, we can say for sure that limited atonement taught by John Calvin is false doctrine and is in opposition to what God says.
 
B

brightfame52

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sawdust said:
The problem is when you read "predestined to eternal life" you interpret that to mean "predestined to believe". It doesn't mean that because it doesn't say that. Believing is not our destiny, eternal life is the destiny. Believing is what we want to to do because we prefer light to darkness. The grace of God gives all of us the opportunity to respond to Him as if we never sinned. The soul is not depraved at birth, it becomes that way if it rejects the drawing of the Father. Not everyone rejects His drawing because they like righteousness and goodness.
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True when talking about salvation matters, but it took place before they existed. The only people who believe in Jesus Christ in time, are those who were predestinated before time. Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained[appointed,destined] to eternal life believed.
 
Cameron143

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selahsays said:
… ‘cause right now, we’re in flesh bodies. (We’ll be in spiritual bodies in the millennium and throughout eternity.)
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What was said is that God doesn't hold sin against children. Where there is no sin, there can be no death. But some children do die. So if it's not their sin, whose sin caused their death?
 
selahsays

selahsays

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Cameron143 said:
What was said is that God doesn't hold sin against children. Where there is no sin, there can be no death. But some children do die. So if it's not their sin, whose sin caused their death?
Click to expand...
Like I said, we’re in a fallen world and in flesh bodies that are not immortal. We will all die, right?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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selahsays said:
Like I said, we’re in a fallen world and in flesh bodies that are not immortal. We will all die, right?
Click to expand...
If Adam and Eve never sinned, would they still be alive? In the same body?
 
Genez

Genez

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brightfame52 said:
@sawdust



True when talking about salvation matters, but it took place before they existed. The only people who believe in Jesus Christ in time, are those who were predestinated before time. Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained[appointed,destined] to eternal life believed.
Click to expand...
Bright Frame....

If God wanted to have you alive during the age of Israel, and for you to be a Jew when you believed?
If God did want that for you?

He would have predestined your time to be alive on earth during the age of Israel.

As for us? God predestined us to be born during the Church age so that we can be the Bride of Christ in our resurrection.
On the other hand? Moses was not predestined to become the Bride of Christ..

Yes.... God sovereignly chose you to be resurrected with a body just like the Lords.
Other believers in history who were not predestined to be alive during the Church age will not be the Bride of Christ.

That is why it says that we were chosen IN Christ. Not simply 'chosen.'
​
Ephesians 1:3-4​
​
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has ​
blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in ​
Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to ​
be holy and blameless in his sight. "​

It does not say He chose us to saved. It says He chose us IN him.

Why in Him?

Where was Eve's body when Adam was created?
In Adam....

Where we Chosen?
In Christ!!!!!!

We are the "bride of Christ."
Only applies to those in the Church!




grace and peace ..........
 
Stan_the_Man

Stan_the_Man

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Cameron143 said:
Then why do they die? Isn't it sin that brings death?
Click to expand...

No, one does not die because they are in sin.

When Adam sinned, he lost his supernatural body so everyone born after him does not have a supernatural body.

That does not mean your body sins and you cannot control it as some falsely claim

God says it's appointed unto man to die once

Christians are called to walk after the Spirit not after the flesh and that's the game changer that enable us to not live after sin that some claim is not possible as an excuse to keep doing sinful behavior.

They'll tell you that they sin in word and deed every day and they just can't help it because they falsely believe they were born a sinner and the devil is laughing at them because that's the devil that started that false doctrine.



selahsays said:
…but Lucifer (the devil) caused the overthrow before Adam, right?
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No, Adam was not deceived and he knew eating of that tree was sinful and he did it anyway.

satan is not forcibly overthrow Adam. Adam made the decision to disobey God.




brightfame52 said:
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained[appointed,destined] to eternal life believed.
Click to expand...

That does not mean all the other people there that day were not chosen by God and the Lord prevented them from getting saved.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

It's God's will that ALL men get saved and NONE perish:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
 
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