Did Jesus Have an Advantage over Pre-Fall Adam During the Incarnation?

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sawdust

sawdust

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Mem said:
At what point in Jesus' temporal sojourn upon the earth might've He been most tempted to exercise His advantage?
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I would have thought the time of His greatest temptation was in the garden, afterall, he did sweat blood. That is an indication of very extreme stress. Appropriate really, when one considers the trouble began in a garden, the final conflict should be resolved in a garden. It seems to me if there was ever a time to function as God and extricate Himself from the torture He was about to endure, that would have been a good time to do it. The only other time I can think of that may have seemed to be to His advantage is when He was on the Cross and they were chiding Him to save Himself and come down. (Luke 23:35-39)

Mem said:
Here, I suppose the most popular answer might be, 'within the desert,' but Jesus didn't hesitate to be strengthened by God's word when He was tempted there. What about at that time that He cried out, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"
Now, .... I've heard the explanation that this is the moment when He was separated from His Father, that the Father 'turned His back on Him' but, ...well, I find this a bit difficult to accept, without just 'taking it to be true,' Of course, and there are good reasons given to believe that, I've heard them, but the biggest hurdle for me in accepting this view is that Jesus said cried this out after He had said, "I thirst."
And God word says, "When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them." (Isaiah 31:17)

So, was this actually the point that the Father turned away from Him, or rather, the closest Jesus came to actually 'losing faith' and turning away from God as (intimate) Father to regard Him as (distant) God, as I think Adam must have. Thus, this is why I wonder whether Adam actually knew God as Father even though Adam is known as 'a son of God,' because, after that moment when Jesus cried that out, "My God, My God...", even as He was feeling uncertain whether God was with Him, even then He said, "Father, into your hands, I commit my spirit."
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I have a whole other view of His being forsaken on the Cross. I don't believe the Christ ever came close to losing faith and that His scream of being forsaken was in fact born out of perfect faith, not doubt. Therefore I can't see it have any relevance to the issue of Adam's perception of God as Father.

In regards to that question, I can only look at us and while we do not know our parents as parents from an intellectual standpoint, we do instinctively recognise them as being distinct from all others even as a small babe so maybe something similar occurred with Adam.
 
sawdust

sawdust

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#22
ewq1938 said:
Christ had an advantage because he knew he was God the Son and could perform miracles when needed but his life was hard, and the pain he felt was real and hurt him and he had more pain than anyone else has ever had.
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I agree with you He knew He was the Son of God but I disagree knowing He could perform miracles had any positive bearing and indeed, if anything, was a disadvantage for He had agreed not to function as God on the basis of His own authority but rather to rely solely on God the Father and Spirit.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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sawdust said:
Is there any other way to know God (know as in experience) apart from spiritually?
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Yes. We will see God and Christ face-to-face in eternity. When Christ walked on earth, people saw God as a Man face-to-face. Now the Man Christ Jesus is in Heaven. But at present we communicate in the Spirit.
 
sawdust

sawdust

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#25
Nehemiah6 said:
Yes. We will see God and Christ face-to-face in eternity. When Christ walked on earth, people saw God as a Man face-to-face. Now the Man Christ Jesus is in Heaven. But at present we communicate in the Spirit.
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Yes there is that, but that's outside the context of Adam and Jesus within time and space which is what this thread is referring to.
 
G

Gideon300

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ewq1938 said:
There's nothing in the bible that supports this.
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Obviously I don't agree. I see parallels between the temptation Jesus faced in the wilderness and the temptations offered to Adam and Eve.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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#28
sawdust said:
Yes there is that, but that's outside the context of Adam and Jesus within time and space which is what this thread is referring to.
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Why is it out of context? After God created Adam and Eve they saw Christ face to face as the pre-incarnate YHWH Elohim (LORD God). No man has seen God the Father, but Adam and Eve met with Christ in the Garden of Eden before the Fall. At the same time Adam is "of the earth" while Christ has always been the Lord from Heaven.
 
A

Adstar

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#29
sawdust said:
I have discussed this a couple of times with others, never coming to any consensus. I thought I would open the discussion here. Some say because He is God, He did have an advantage, others have been unsure.

What say you?
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Yes Jesus was superior to Adam because Jesus was God made manafest in the flesh.. Adam was / is a created being.. He was Good before He obtained the knowledge of good and evil but even when he was in that state he was not divine..
 
sawdust

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#31
Nehemiah6 said:
Why is it out of context? After God created Adam and Eve they saw Christ face to face as the pre-incarnate YHWH Elohim (LORD God). No man has seen God the Father, but Adam and Eve met with Christ in the Garden of Eden before the Fall. At the same time Adam is "of the earth" while Christ has always been the Lord from Heaven.
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I see you are defining "knowing God spiritually" different from how I was understanding it. I was understanding from the perspective of being spiritually alive. We can't know God when we are spiritually dead. (knowing as in experiencing God in a personal relationship)

Both Adam and Christ entered the world spiritually alive.
 
sawdust

sawdust

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#32
Adstar said:
Yes Jesus was superior to Adam because Jesus was God made manafest in the flesh.. Adam was / is a created being.. He was Good before He obtained the knowledge of good and evil but even when he was in that state he was not divine..
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I wasn't really asking if He was superior. As God, it goes without question but during the incarnation Christ "laid aside" His right to function as God and therefore had to face life solely as a man. I'm looking to compare His life (as a man) against Adam's life pre-fall to see if people think Jesus had an advantage Adam did not have.
 
sawdust

sawdust

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Gideon300 said:
No. And that is why Adam did not know God and Jesus did.
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See my post #31 as I didn't realise my response wasn't to the one I originally asked the question of. He said yes and you say no but I'm thinking we might all be understanding "knowing God spiritually" as something different.

Sorry for the confusion.
 
A

Adstar

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#34
sawdust said:
I wasn't really asking if He was superior. As God, it goes without question but during the incarnation Christ "laid aside" His right to function as God and therefore had to face life solely as a man. I'm looking to compare His life (as a man) against Adam's life pre-fall to see if people think Jesus had an advantage Adam did not have.
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Jesus never fully laid aside His divinity.. He could still read peoples thoughts, He could still heal people by His will. He could still raise people from the dead. He could walk on water and calm to storm. So many things Jesus could still do that Adam could never do.. So yeah Jesus could do things Adam could not do.. Therefore Jesus had an advantage over Adam..
 
G

Gideon300

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#35
Adstar said:
Jesus never fully laid aside His divinity.. He could still read peoples thoughts, He could still heal people by His will. He could still raise people from the dead. He could walk on water and calm to storm. So many things Jesus could still do that Adam could never do.. So yeah Jesus could do things Adam could not do.. Therefore Jesus had an advantage over Adam..
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I would not go that far. We don't know what Adam could do. There is a theory that Adam could fly. This is based on two things, one that mankind has always sought to fly and also, how could Adam have dominion over the birds if he himself could not fly?

The Bible says that Jesus emptied Himself of all that made Him God. (Philippians 2:7). What Jesus could do and what He did do are not the same. Jesus did only what He saw the father doing (John 5:19) and said whatever the Father gave Him to say. (John 12:49, 14:10)

Jesus came to minister as a man, not as God. He is therefore called the last Adam. Jesus is everything that Adam could have been, if Adam had only chosen to eat from the Tree of Life.
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

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#36
Gideon300 said:
I would not go that far. We don't know what Adam could do. There is a theory that Adam could fly. This is based on two things, one that mankind has always sought to fly and also, how could Adam have dominion over the birds if he himself could not fly?
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He probably could breathe underwater also because he had dominion over fish.

LOL.
 
CS1

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#38
sawdust said:
I have discussed this a couple of times with others, never coming to any consensus. I thought I would open the discussion here. Some say because He is God, He did have an advantage, others have been unsure.

What say you?
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Jesus did what Adam did not as Jesus is also known as the Second Adam.

in contrast :

Adam
  1. was given authority and handed it over to the Devil
  2. Adam was to do the will of God he failed
  3. Adam brought forth death to the human race
  4. Adam needs to sacrifice for atonement

Jesus
  1. Was given authority and would not give it to the devil
  2. Did the will of the Father without failing
  3. His death brought eternal life
  4. Jesus was the sacrifice for all sin.
 
sawdust

sawdust

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#39
CS1 said:
Jesus did what Adam did not as Jesus is also known as the Second Adam.

in contrast :

Adam
  1. was given authority and handed it over to the Devil
  2. Adam was to do the will of God he failed
  3. Adam brought forth death to the human race
  4. Adam needs to sacrifice for atonement

Jesus
  1. Was given authority and would not give it to the devil
  2. Did the will of the Father without failing
  3. His death brought eternal life
  4. Jesus was the sacrifice for all sin.
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No argument from me on that score.

Do you think Jesus had an advantage over Adam in being able to do those things?
 
sawdust

sawdust

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#40
Adstar said:
Jesus never fully laid aside His divinity.. He could still read peoples thoughts, He could still heal people by His will. He could still raise people from the dead. He could walk on water and calm to storm. So many things Jesus could still do that Adam could never do.. So yeah Jesus could do things Adam could not do.. Therefore Jesus had an advantage over Adam..
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I have to disagree there. What Jesus did He did in the power of the Holy Spirit.

John 5:19
Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
 
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