Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
Yes, that is Paul's opinion. But Malachi, the Prophet, does not back this and neither does Genesis.

This is another one of Paul's opinions like he wrote in 1 timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

I DO NOT = not God but PAUL! (does not permit)

Nowhere in 1 Timothy does it say GOD does not permit women.
It only states Paul and he wrote I DO NOT.

Paul uses his own authority a lot in scripture.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,972
394
83
What an interesting study! I must admit that I’ve learned quite a lot! I agree that the passages you referred to in Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Romans are absolutely unconditional promises. It’s interesting that some of these promises will not actually be fulfilled until the millennium, and they are definite proof of our Father’s unconditional love.

Also, I totally understand the concept of unconditional election if it applies solely to this flash age we’re living in today. Like you say, before the foundation of the world, election may have been conditional. You’ve given me a lot to mediate upon. Thanks! —Selah
Actually, "they are definite proof of our Father's [sacrificial] love for his people. God's love for his elect is conditioned on the obedience of the Son! God cannot love sin or the sinner. And he can't love the latter because sinners' hearts are the wellspring of evil. There's nothing good in a sinner's heart or his unregenerate nature. This is another very hot, highly disputed, uber-controversial topic in the church, and as such it deserves a thread of its own. But I'll just give two mind-blowing passages for you to contemplate and perhaps these will also encourage you to take up your own study.

John 10:17
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life — only to take it up again.
NIV

In other words, the reason the Father loved his Son is because Jesus was obedient unto death (Php 2:8).

And,

Rom 8:39
39... neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NIV

Far too many Christians gloss over this text completely missing a profound truth. I think most just interpret the passage as though Paul stopped at the phrase "love of God". In other words, nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God...Period! But Paul didn't stop there! He actually qualified God's love with the bolded phrase at the end. The immeasurable love that God has for his saints comes in and through Christ Jesus -- who just happens to be the Federal Head of the Church -- of His Body -- of all God's elect. In eternity God loved all his elect on this basis of Christ's Federal Headship, and of course the Son's perfect obedience in all things all the time.

And I'll share one more text because of its profound implications. This is the kind passage one must prayerfully meditate on in order to get to the meat of what is being taught. I love this passage!

Titus 1:1-2
1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2 a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,
NIV

The phrase I want to focus on is bolded. The question begging to be asked is: To whom did God make this promise before the beginning of time? It can't be us, for none of us were around before time began, were we? This promise could have only been made to the Son in eternity -- in eternity when God predestined all his elect for salvation. So...because all God's saints share in Christ's inheritance, Paul is really saying that because of our position in Christ we even share in the promises God made to Him before the world began. We are recipients of those promises by virtue of our identity with Christ -- who, again, is our Federal Head.

It's no wonder Paul could also say, "For from him and through him and to him are all things" (Rom 11:36).

Anyhow...lot's to chew on, sister. But I am very joyful that you're beginning to see some very profound gospel truths.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
Since this was just Paul's opinion, should the entire book of Romans be ripped from the Bible?
Paul wrote Letters.
His letters are excellent guides.
Men voted to make those letters become the Bible.
I have nothing against Paul and love what he writes.
I am pointing out he uses his own authority a lot, which Peter, Luke, John, James, Jude, Matthew, Others(?) do not.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,972
394
83
Yes, that is Paul's opinion. But Malachi, the Prophet, does not back this and neither does Genesis.

This is another one of Paul's opinions like he wrote in 1 timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

I DO NOT = not God but PAUL! (does not permit)

Nowhere in 1 Timothy does it say GOD does not permit women.
It only states Paul and he wrote I DO NOT.

Paul uses his own authority a lot in scripture.[/QUOTE]

Yes, he does. It's called Apostolic Authority. Guess who gave the apostles their authority? Do you have any idea?
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
Yes, he does. It's called Apostolic Authority. Guess who gave the apostles their authority? Do you have any idea?
The Bible is about Jesus, not someone else's authority.

Everything Peter writes or other Disciples we can find Jesus saying those things. They confirmed Jesus, not spoke with authroity of themselves.
 

BillyBob

Active member
Dec 20, 2023
406
176
43
Texas
Paul wrote Letters.
His letters are excellent guides.
Men voted to make those letters become the Bible.
I have nothing against Paul and love what he writes.
I am pointing out he uses his own authority a lot, which Peter, Luke, John, James, Jude, Matthew, Others(?) do not.
Wow! I'm at a loss for words!:confused::confused::confused:
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
20,033
6,857
113
62
Yes, that is Paul's opinion. But Malachi, the Prophet, does not back this and neither does Genesis.

This is another one of Paul's opinions like he wrote in 1 timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

I DO NOT = not God but PAUL! (does not permit)

Nowhere in 1 Timothy does it say GOD does not permit women.
It only states Paul and he wrote I DO NOT.

Paul uses his own authority a lot in scripture.
So, what Paul writes that is recorded in the Bible isn't inspired?
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
So, what Paul writes that is recorded in the Bible isn't inspired?
I never said that.

But what part of God is represented when Paul writes HE DOES NOT PERMIT?
If it was from God it would be written God does not permit.

Are we to say when Paul makes a personal opinion of his OWN AUTHORITY that is Inspired or Paul's opinion?
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
If people read what Paul desires from his own reasoning and wants to equal that to God, how can anyone debate that?
To me, it's his opinion.

When someone writes: I DO NOT PERMIT that comes from SELF, not from God.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
20,033
6,857
113
62
I never said that.

But what part of God is represented when Paul writes HE DOES NOT PERMIT?
If it was from God it would be written God does not permit.

Are we to say when Paul makes a personal opinion of his OWN AUTHORITY that is Inspired or Paul's opinion?
Regardless of Paul's thoughts on the subject, by virtue of rising to the level of scripture they are also God's thoughts. Thus, it's not Paul who is writing so much as it is Paul writing as the Spirit moves him. It is the very words of Christ through Paul.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
Regardless of Paul's thoughts on the subject, by virtue of rising to the level of scripture they are also God's thoughts. Thus, it's not Paul who is writing so much as it is Paul writing as the Spirit moves him. It is the very words of Christ through Paul.
Paul is a Scholar of the Torah/Tanakh. He is so well versed you can tell when he talks about it in a personal manner. He is a Pharisee of Pharisees, remember.

When I preach, those words are personal to me when I preach, even though they are from the Word of God. I preach them like they come from me because I am convicted by them.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,972
394
83
Why did God hate Esau?

God made a Covenant with Abraham for all of Abraham's descendants (Israel). So to be first born meant you were given this Blessing of God. But Esau did not care about the Promise of God.

32 And Esau said: 'Behold, I am at the point to die; and what profit shall the birthright do to me?'

34 And Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentils; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way. So Esau despised his birthright.

That's why God hated Esau.
Really? You couldn't be more wrong. What part of Rom 9:11 can't you understand?
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
Really? You couldn't be more wrong. What part of Rom 9:11 can't you understand?
Paul is talking about Election.
11 for the children not yet having been born, neither having done any good or ill, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls,
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
Paul is talking about Election.
11 for the children not yet having been born, neither having done any good or ill, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls,
And then Paul adds older serves younger + God hates Esau/loves Jacob

Paul is making his case for Election by giving 2 examples for why.

But I am saying this is not what Malachi is saying nor Genesis.
This is what Paul is saying.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,091
30,207
113
God cannot love sin or the sinner.
Eh?

Romans 5:8
But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.


Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of
His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life!


Hebrews 2:17
For this reason He had to be made like His brothers in every way, so that He might become a merciful

and faithful high priest in service to God, in order to make atonement for the sins of the people.
 

MerSee

Active member
Jan 13, 2024
796
119
43
Eh?

Romans 5:8
But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.


Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of
His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life!


Hebrews 2:17
For this reason He had to be made like His brothers in every way, so that He might become a merciful

and faithful high priest in service to God, in order to make atonement for the sins of the people.
The "US" and "WE" in those verses are the elect.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
20,033
6,857
113
62
Paul is a Scholar of the Torah/Tanakh. He is so well versed you can tell when he talks about it in a personal manner. He is a Pharisee of Pharisees, remember.

When I preach, those words are personal to me when I preach, even though they are from the Word of God. I preach them like they come from me because I am convicted by them.
Paul could be a butler from Bangladesh. It wouldn't matter. If he was writing his favorite lambchop recipe and under inspiration, it's the word of God.