Predestination is misunderstood...

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#5,621
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
#5,621
ForestGreenCook said:
The only righteousness we have is the imputed righteousness of Christ.
Click to expand...
righteousness is imputed to a person when he or she believes.

God imputed righteousness to Abraham when Abraham believed:

Genesis 15:6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he [God] counted it to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

Righteousness was not imputed to Abraham before Abraham believed. Righteousness was imputed to Abraham when he believed.


Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus


In Romans 4:24, the verbs "it shall be" and "imputed" and "if we believe" are all in the present tense which means that God imputes righteousness the moment the person believes notwithstanding the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ was raised from the dead many, many years ago and that before the foundation of the world, God devised His plan of redemption.
.
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
#5,622
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#5,622
ForestGreenCook said:
He came to his own (the Jews) and they rejected him. They rejected him, and began to worship idols when Moses was on the mountain receiving God's laws written in stone. He then blinded their eyes to see the truth. God did not reject them as his elect and they still have the promise of an inheritance of heaven. He left in the midst of them a remnant that would follow his truths (Zeph 3:11-13).
Click to expand...
They rejected Him because they were...

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”


Had they "not" been blinded by God, they would not have rejected Him and there would be no Crucifixion.
So God blinded them in order to reject Him so He would DIE for our sins.
 
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

Banned
#5,623
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
#5,623
ForestGreenCook said:
By your comments, you believe eternal salvation is gained by your works. Do you realize that the only righteousness that you have by nature is as filthy rags? (Isaiah 64:6).
Click to expand...
evidently calvinism depraves the depraved.

Obviously

Stroll on with the thunder dome song

 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
#5,626
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#5,626
ForestGreenCook said:
By your comments, you believe eternal salvation is gained by your works. Do you realize that the only righteousness that you have by nature is as filthy rags? (Isaiah 64:6).
Click to expand...
That does not mean that at all.

Verse 19 begins with because God has shown it to them.

When anyone looks at Earth they are being shown by God what He did.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#5,627
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#5,627
FollowerofShiloh said:
They rejected Him because they were...

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”


Had they "not" been blinded by God, they would not have rejected Him and there would be no Crucifixion.
So God blinded them in order to reject Him so He would DIE for our sins.
Click to expand...

You have the cart before the horse. They rejected God first, then he blinded them because of their rejecting him.
 
Genez

Genez

Junior Member
#5,632
Oct 12, 2017
2,960
420
83
#5,632
reneweddaybyday said:
This is nothing but a strawman argument. Everyone who has posted in this thread agrees that salvation is wholly of/by/from God.

That you equate faith as some sort of "choice of men" does not transform faith into your stated claim.





Again, this is nothing but a strawman argument.





Because for some reason, some folks believe faith is some sort of work on the part of man even though God clearly states that faith is not works:

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness
.
Click to expand...
Abraham's FAITH was justified by his works.

His faith was proven to be genuine faith when he offered up Isaac.

Our faith is seen by God as being who and what we really are made of!
Faith is our "substance."

To have "genuine faith?" It will be revealed before angels in our works.
And, in return. Genuine works reveal one has already been saved.


1 Peter 1:6-7​
​
In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while ​
you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. ​
​
These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—​
of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined ​
by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ ​
is revealed.​


To offer up his beloved son, Isaac?

It had to cause at least deep grief for Abraham, who was being put through a trial as a testing of his faith.
For God was requiring for Abraham to kill his innocent son as God commanded.

Abraham's faith was proven "genuine" before God, man,. and the angels.
Genuine faith is what makes us righteous before God.

Having genuine faith shuts Satan's mouth, when Satan accuses us before God,
and demands to know what justifies God saving us!!!!!

We are justified by "faith!"

Satan's children who commit same, or similar sins are devoid of faith.
They are not justified before God. It frustrates Satan who wants us to think we are saved by our works!
Our works done by genuine faith reveal that even God is justified in saying we are saved!

Other than having genuine faith? Nothing justifies us before God...

By simply believing that Jesus died for our sins? (which is faith)
Is all the faith God requires to declare us justified.

Rest... selah....

grace and peace .............
 
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

Banned
#5,633
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
#5,633
ForestGreenCook said:
You are very bold to go against Rev 22:19, but again, you may believe that this scripture, also, is not inspired by God. I thank God that I am not in your shoes.
Click to expand...
evidently calvinism depraves the depraved. Obviously

Tulips are all in bloom now


Sharing my heart on this matter

people calvinism depraves the depraved,

I never realised until 2 weeks weeks I've been getting abused by this the whole 12 months I've been here and that I'm the one who's been bashed by Calvinism and this tulip doctrine that I never knew it existed.

Or Calvinists where doing this


people
you may not have not noticed but I'm being deliberately targeted by Calvinists, who with there doctrine of total depravity have decided that I don't serve God so now there stripping me of God as they do all other people


So I've now re wrote my will again that I will take to my death bed.

Some of you may never of understood so here it is again



Heres a letter to my will, that i will leave in my will, which still shows God as all knowing.

And the question I will leave in my will is

Why Did God make it law that man shall not live alone.

The other thing I will state in my will is that Calvinism will say this is not true, because they say it doesn't line up with an ism, isms are bad thing.

Then in my will, will be this question.

Can you see how this proves calvinism wrong.

friends it will hopefully sink in soon 😊

But here's the reason

Right up to the ending of genesis 3

God had created man not outside of time.

In other words he chose not to know what man would do next before they did something, before the fall of man, because they where living in innocence in his garden, which can be shown in many ways in genesis 3 also.


Well this proves calvinism wrong

but here the other thing,

God first created man with no suitable helper.

After he saw the animals where not suitable helpers for Adam he then made it a law that man should not live alone without a suitable helper and gave him a wife. ❤️


because man was first created not outside of time before the fall , God never knew man would not find the animals suitable helpers, so he the made it law that man shall not live alone by giving him a suitable helper

This is why he hates divorce to.

He hates divorce so much he considers that man living alone is not Good.

But after the fall particular genesis 3 God put man outside of times so he could know what you where going to do before you do it.

Why well to help you in a fallen state, which means you are never truly totally depraved, as God honours marriage in life and death.



One scripture says, when you pray God's knows what you need before you ask him.

Well he never knew that before the fall, because God realised man did not have a suitable helper at first.

If you turn to bible you will read God found that the animals where not suitable helpers for Adam.

So he gave man a helper (a wife) and it made it law that man shall not live alone.

To further sanction this God made it law that marriage must be honoured and told us in no uncertain terms that he hates divorce.

So in death God the father is still with you untill he hands you to the son.


Oh one last note

God is still all knowing.

Because hes God and he cares about you in a fallen state, he has made you live outside of time, so that he knows what you will do before you do it.

As God says this

When you pray God knows what you need before you know it.

Well this was after the fall he said this.

Because before th fall in the garden of innocent ie eden, he never knew that then animals would be a suitable helper untill it was tried.

Then when he knew God then said it's not good that man shall live alone so he made it a law that man shall not live alone and have man a wife.


One last note

God is still all knowing

God is still all knowing


God is still all knowing

God is still all knowing.

Oh lastly one more thing God is still all knowing 😊



Thanks for wanting to understand people


Stroll on with the thunderdome song 😊


 
I

Inquisitor

Well-known member
#5,636
Mar 17, 2022
2,972
870
113
#5,636
ForestGreenCook said:
You have the cart before the horse. They rejected God first, then he blinded them because of their rejecting him.
Click to expand...
In fact, the Jews were grafted out.

7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written.
 
I

Inquisitor

Well-known member
#5,637
Mar 17, 2022
2,972
870
113
#5,637
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
#5,638
Nov 21, 2020
6,340
558
113
#5,638
FollowerofShiloh said:
Calling God a Liar will only send you to HELL!
Be my guest. It's not my Eternity.
Click to expand...
They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin
 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#5,639
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
#5,639
Genez said:
Abraham's FAITH was justified by his works.

His faith was proven to be genuine faith when he offered up Isaac.
Click to expand...
God imputed righteousness to Abraham in Genesis 15:6 ... well before the birth of Isaac:

Genesis 15:6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he [God] counted it to him for righteousness.

This was before the birth of Ishmael ...

When God gave the covenant in which circumcision was a token of the covenant, Abraham was 99 years old (Gen 17:24) ... Ishmael was 13 yrs old (Gen 17:25).

As far as Abraham offering up Isaac, Hebrews 11 tells us Abraham believed God would raise up Isaac from the dead:

Hebrews 11:17-19 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.