God and Time

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C

Chaps

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#41
Apr 3, 2024
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#41
Blade said:
Hi.. not you but so many *.ism's huh. So were all stuck in this time bubble, fallen world and were talking about time and God? Not sure why you didn't use more of the word for it would easily solve some of these views. The simple fact the word say God has always been has no beginning or end. Then He says thousand years is as one day and one day as a thousand years. That's not "time" as we know it here. The world some say has been around for billions if not longer and man lets just say a good six thousand years. Now add GOD who has always been. I see God saying "can't touch this" lol meaning we know nothing. Just the fact Christ, angels can be in one place then another faster then a blink of eye. No time no space. Fun to speculate but.. that's all it is.
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Hey Blade, thanks for replying. I think all of these views account for these scriptures. The atemporalist would say that God’s eternal nature shows that he stands outside time and that a day is as a thousands years suggests he is not subject to time as we are. Whereas the temporalist would argue that God’s eternal nature just means that he exists in time but has not beginning or end…he is infinite within that time. And they would say “a thousand years is like a day” just means that because God is eternal and is not subject to a mere 80 year lifespan, our concept of a thousand years is more like a day for God since he spans the ages. Finally the metatemporalist would also argue that these verses speak to God standing outside time but also that he exists in his own time which is why time does not apply to him as it does to us…and so forth.


So, my point is that it’s not like one view holds to the validity of the Bible. All of them do, but each of them read those verses through their own philosophical paradigm.…just like pretty much any systematic theology tends to have the reader see each passage within the framework of how they understand God (be it Calvinism, Arminianism, Dispensationalism, Modalism and on and on and on….
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#42
Jul 31, 2013
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#42
maxwel said:
Omniscience & Foreordination are sufficient to account for all of God's statements about the future.

We should be very careful when we look at God speaking of his omniscience and foreordination, and reading into that some necessity for God to break with the normal temporal order. As this is not a logical necessity, and is not required by the text.

God's omniscience and providence are enough to account for every statement he makes about the future.

.
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would you agree, omniscience that is constrained by the future isn't really omniscience at all, but only perfect knowledge of the past?
 
posthuman

posthuman

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#43
Jul 31, 2013
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#43
PaulThomson said:
So, your claim that God is not constrained by time is merely speculative. God could be constrained by time in the same way that He is constrained by love and truth. Not because the time he experiences is something other that Himself to which He is subject, but because it is something that He is by nature: loving, truthful and temporal.
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what is the nature of "being temporal"?
 
Eli1

Eli1

Well-known member
#44
Apr 5, 2022
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#44
Chaps said:
I dont know what you mean by me being “new to this” or that I haven’t “really looked into the concept of time at all.” I’m not sure if thats just your way of suggesting I sound silly or that you know a lot more than me. I’m more than happy to learn, but I guess you’ll need to do more than point to some random documentaries you watched on tv once.

I am more than happy to admit a fair amount of naïveté on this subject, however, I dont think the categories I listed come from sources that are unfamiliar with the subject. Atemporalism is a view held by proponents such as Plato, Plotinus, Augustine, Boethius, Anselm, Thomas Aquinas, Paul Helm and Norman Geisler. Temporalism is held by proponents such as William Ockholm, Oscar Cullman, Nicholas Wolterstoff, Steven Davis, Clark Pinnock, John Feinberg and others.

So, I just write that to say that a lot of literature has been written on the topic, so it’s not like I am the first one to ponder it or come up with these categories. Also I think it’s not really an answer to just say that “we can’t understand what Time is” and dismiss the subject altogether. While we may still be figuring time out from a physics perspective, from a philosophical perspective we can understand enough to discuss the reproductions of God acting within the framework of a past, present or future, or God being sovereign over time such that past, present and future do not apply to Him.

I guess I would surmise by saying that it’s fine if you dont feel there is value in the discussion, but clearly this has been a topic discussed for millennia and is still discussed today among philosophers and theologians. I dont think me bringing it up or discussing the challenges with different views (that are not my own challenges by the way but debates philosophers have posed for hundreds, if not thousands of years).

Anyway, I was just looking for an interesting discussion and thoughts on these views. I just dont see the need to make it sound like it’s silly to have questions about different views or that a varying opinion means someone is ignorant.
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I did mention that this is a fun topic didn’t i? :) All philosophical topics are, because they have no answer.
You may see my answer as “insulting” but maybe I said that to engage you so you can tell me something better that hasn’t been said since Plato. Because I come from that area where people take a real subject like money or water and turn it into a philosophical debate for hours, days, months or years. Because it’s fun and it’s because what they do when they have a coffee and sit on it for hours.
The only slight advantage we have now, is that we’ve made some technological and mathematical progress to say that based on our observations, we see that everything has a beginning, just like the Bible says.
So, let’s recap again and maybe you will tell me something better and more engaging or more interesting as you’ve said. :)

  • We do not understand what Time is actually in relation to our reality at a mathematical or physical level despite being very “real” for us.
  • If we do not know what Time is, as a concept then we are very limited in asking questions about Time in our reality and Time outside of our reality (which is even more silly to ask), which is the “space” (if we can even call it that) where God is.
  • We do know that everything had a beginning based on our observations so far, which requires a prime mover. So when God set this whole thing in motion, He also created what we perceive as Time. Since it’s a logical question of precedence based on what we’ve observed so far with our telescopes, we can say that when God created this universe, with what we perceive as time, it means that He stands outside of what we perceive as time.
  • So, this takes Temporalism and Metaporal out of the picture immediately. We are left with ATemporalism, where according to your original post, you have made some incorrect assumptions about the position of God in relation to His creation.
    Why on Earth would you think that a supreme Creator who has set this whole thing in motion is somehow “locked out” of His creation?
    Not only He is not “locked out” or “frozen” but He sent His only Son here to join His creation and intercedes according to His will in the form of Miracles which defy logical and scientific explanation.
So, have you really thought about this deeply? :)
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#45
Mar 1, 2022
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#45
When I'm waiting on someone, when they show up...it's about time.
When I'm waiting on the Lord...it's about eternity.
 
Eli1

Eli1

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#46
Apr 5, 2022
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#46
PaulThomson said:
So, your claim that God is not constrained by time is merely speculative. God could be constrained by time in the same way that He is constrained by love and truth. Not because the time he experiences is something other that Himself to which He is subject, but because it is something that He is by nature: loving, truthful and temporal.
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PaulThomson said:
So, you have no evidence that God is not constrained by time. It is speculation.
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Paul, have you tried stronger coffee to keep us engaged? :)
We have 3 levels of proof.
1. Scripture
2. Logical reasoning
3. Scientific observation
It’s a question of precedence. Who was your grandfather and his grandfather and his grandfather all the way back to Adam and Eve and all the way back to Big Bang before them.
So who was the prime mover? God was.
So, when He created this reality with what we perceive as Time, it means that He stands outside of Time.
And THAT is your proof Paul :)
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#47
Oct 29, 2023
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#47
Eli1 said:
Paul, have you tried stronger coffee to keep us engaged? :)
We have 3 levels of proof.
1. Scripture
2. Logical reasoning
3. Scientific observation
It’s a question of precedence. Who was your grandfather and his grandfather and his grandfather all the way back to Adam and Eve and all the way back to Big Bang before them.
So who was the prime mover? God was.
So, when He created this reality with what we perceive as Time, it means that He stands outside of Time.
And THAT is your proof Paul :)
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1. There is no scripture that says God created time. God created sidereal clocks that help man guage the passage of time. It is a no sequitur too jump from the scriptures so far cited to the conclusion that therefore "God created time."

2. There is no logically compelling reason why God must be outside of time.

3, Scientific observation cn only measure what is within our space time continuum, Scientific observation cannot observe that which is divine and imminent within' or divine and transcendent to our spaceitime continuum. So science cannot tell us whether or not God experiences time.
 
Eli1

Eli1

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#49
Apr 5, 2022
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#49
PaulThomson said:
1. There is no scripture that says God created time. God created sidereal clocks that help man guage the passage of time. It is a no sequitur too jump from the scriptures so far cited to the conclusion that therefore "God created time."

2. There is no logically compelling reason why God must be outside of time.

3, Scientific observation cn only measure what is within our space time continuum, Scientific observation cannot observe that which is divine and imminent within' or divine and transcendent to our spaceitime continuum. So science cannot tell us whether or not God experiences time.
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* There is no scripture that states that Internet exists, yet here we are.
How do you deal with this?

* A question of precedence based on observation is not compelling enough for you?
Do you believe you exist?

* That is correct, which is why your question about God being part of our time as we experience it, is also not very logical.
 
P

PaulThomson

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#50
Oct 29, 2023
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#50
posthuman said:
would you agree, omniscience that is constrained by the future isn't really omniscience at all, but only perfect knowledge of the past?
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What do you mean by "being constrained by the future"? Knowing the future in terms of as yet unresolved probability functions is to understand reality as it is. Perfect knowledge of the past and present, and a realistic anticipation of the likely range of possible future states and events is perfect omniscience in a world that was not created to run inexorably according to an exhaustively predetermined script.
 
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PaulThomson

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#51
Oct 29, 2023
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#51
Dino246 said:
Scripture.
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The word "scripture" does not prove "that God is not limited by time, in the same sense that He is not limited by love or Justice."
Nor does the word "scripture" prove that God is not by nature spatial and temporal."
 
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PaulThomson

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#52
Oct 29, 2023
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#52
Magenta said:
God is temporal in your view? Yikes.

temporal
ADJECTIVE
  1. of or relating to time as opposed to eternity
    of or relating to earthly life
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Don't let dictionaries scare you. Eternity there is obviously being used to mean outside of time, rather that the other meaning of eternal, time without end. God is temporal just means that God experiences events sequentially.
 
P

PaulThomson

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#53
Oct 29, 2023
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#53
Magenta said:
God is temporal in your view? Yikes.

temporal
ADJECTIVE
  1. of or relating to time as opposed to eternity
    of or relating to earthly life
Click to expand...
Don't let dictionaries scare you. Eternity there is obviously being used to mean outside of time, rather that the other meaning of eternal, time without end. God is temporal just means that God experiences events sequentially.
 
Eli1

Eli1

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#54
Apr 5, 2022
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#54
PaulThomson said:
Don't let dictionaries scare you. Eternity there is obviously being used to mean outside of time, rather that the other meaning of eternal, time without end. God is temporal just means that God experiences events sequentially.
Click to expand...
And you base this on what? Give me a few reasons.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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#55
Jul 3, 2015
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#55
PaulThomson said:
Don't let dictionaries scare you. Eternity there is obviously being used to mean outside of time, rather that the other meaning of eternal, time without end. God is temporal just means that God experiences events sequentially.
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Dictionaries don't scare me but perhaps they do you, since you seem so averse to using them. Eternal means without beginning or end. Scripture specifically states that God is Spirit but you say He is temporal which is the opposite.
 
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PaulThomson

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#56
Oct 29, 2023
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#56
Eli1 said:
And you base this on what? Give me a few reasons.
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https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/eternity

(ɪtɜːʳnɪti
)
1. UNCOUNTABLE NOUN
Eternity is time without an end or a state of existence outside time, especially the state which some people believe they will pass into after they have died.
I have always found the thought of eternity terrifying.
...laying him to rest for all eternity.
Synonyms: the afterlife, heaven [informal], paradise, the next world More Synonyms of eternity
2. SINGULAR NOUN
If you say that a situation lasted for an eternity, you mean that it seemed to last an extremely long time, usually because it was boring or unpleasant.
The war continued for an eternity.
The ringing went on for what seemed an eternity, and then someone answered.
Synonyms: ages, years, an age, centuries More Synonyms of eternity

Eternity can mean either infinite temporality, endless duration; or without any temporality., atemporal, without any duration;
 
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PaulThomson

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#57
Oct 29, 2023
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#57
maxwel said:
Omniscience & Foreordination are sufficient to account for all of God's statements about the future.

We should be very careful when we look at God speaking of his omniscience and foreordination, and reading into that some necessity for God to break with the normal temporal order. As this is not a logical necessity, and is not required by the text.

God's omniscience and providence are enough to account for every statement he makes about the future.

.
Click to expand...
God's wisdom and His omnipotence are enough to account for every statement He makes about the future.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#58
Oct 29, 2023
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#58
Magenta said:
Dictionaries don't scare me but perhaps they do you, since you seem so averse to using them. Eternal means without beginning or end. Scripture specifically states that God is Spirit but you say He is temporal which is the opposite.
Click to expand...
Eternal can mean with beginningless and endless temporality, limitless temporality. You are equivocating over the various meanings of temporal.
 
Eli1

Eli1

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#59
Apr 5, 2022
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#59
PaulThomson said:
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/eternity

(ɪtɜːʳnɪti
)
1. UNCOUNTABLE NOUN
Eternity is time without an end or a state of existence outside time, especially the state which some people believe they will pass into after they have died.
I have always found the thought of eternity terrifying.
...laying him to rest for all eternity.
Synonyms: the afterlife, heaven [informal], paradise, the next world More Synonyms of eternity
2. SINGULAR NOUN
If you say that a situation lasted for an eternity, you mean that it seemed to last an extremely long time, usually because it was boring or unpleasant.
The war continued for an eternity.
The ringing went on for what seemed an eternity, and then someone answered.
Synonyms: ages, years, an age, centuries More Synonyms of eternity

Eternity can mean either infinite temporality, endless duration; or without any temporality., atemporal, without any duration;
Click to expand...
Okay Paul, let's do the semantics portion of the debate now while we order another coffee. :)
Let's take this statement: Eternity is time without an end.
While this may seem subjectively true from our experience as humans, we still have no clue what Time is objectively as a concept.
If it a river? Does it even exist? We have no idea. It does seem very real though, no doubt about it, but we have no idea if it exists or not.
So, if we don't know what Time is conceptually, how do you even make a claim that God is part of our time, especially since He created the first movement with the Big Bang with included what we perceive as Time?
I'm curious to know how you reason this logically in your mind. :)
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#60
Jul 3, 2015
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#60
PaulThomson said:
Eternal can mean with beginningless and endless temporality, limitless temporality. You are equivocating over the various meanings of temporal.
Click to expand...
Obviously you don't know the meaning of equivocate, either.
 
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