Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

God is not bound by your understanding or by Calvin's understand of Him or His word.

One thing the Reformation has taught us all is that there is much in the bible which remains hidden to us unless and until God shines His light upon it.

Yes and he speaks for us all ... if you ever do experience agape love you will understand to the last comma and full stop what John Wesley means here.

God's love is not attainable to our poor human hearts, we have but faint glimpses of it. People swoon when God manifests His love in a tangible way among His people. Wesley and others testify of one instance when they were all gathered together and God's love fell upon them all and overpowered them all so that fell to the ground in His presence.

You are far from such things.

Peter understood what Wesley meant when the Lord asked him 3 times "lovest thou Me?" We do love but our love is but a weak flickering candle.

Wesley was enunciating a well known lesson which it is well for us to learn. We do not go by human feelings, we go by the word of God.

Spurgeon would have said nothing different.

1. I am not arminian. If your going to continue to make accusation’s we can stop here

2. Jesus came for the reason he said. Not to judge the world. But that the world MIGHT be saved.

For God so loved the WORLD. That WHOEVER believes in him, will not perish, but will live forever.

Don’t take my word for it. Take jesus word for it. Calvinism is just as dangerous as arminians in my View. You both distort God and who he is.

I would not say as such, I think everyone has Noahs wife in their linkage..

Hos 5:15
I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
***Then*** they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”

Israel MUST ASK CHRIST TO RETURN (speak to the Rock) before He comes......the Second Coming.

Exo 17:6
“Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock in Horeb; and you shall strike the rock, and water will come out of it, that the people may drink.” And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

Num 20:8
“Take the rod; you and your brother Aaron gather the congregation together. Speak to the rock before their eyes, and it will yield its water; thus you shall bring water for them out of the rock, and give drink to the congregation and their animals.”

Gen 42:8
So Joseph recognized his brothers, but they did not recognize him

Zec 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Gen 45:1
Then Joseph could not restrain himself before all those who stood by him, and he cried out, “Make everyone go out from me!” So no one stood with him while Joseph made himself known to his brothers.

Hos 5:15
I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”
Hos 6:1
Come, and let us return to the LORD;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
Hos 6:2
After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.

We were discussing faith and its being subjective or objective and what exactly it is about it that is gifted by God. I don't recall you clarifying if we came to agreement about it.

Sure.

You're going to need to move on from this stuff if you want to continue any discussion, which I thought you were dropping. If you decide to actually get into any Scripture, which I offered to do a few times, we can use our abilities in Christ in Spirit to see if we can agree on what Scripture says.

Sorry, my friend, but you are sternly pushing Systematic Reformed Theology, specifically that known by the acronym TULIP and bearing the name of "Calvinism" be it right or wrong to so bear such name.

This is just like I wrote a few moments ago, every system thinks it's Biblical Theology and every other system battles against every other system to make that claim. A true Biblical Theology will come about when we have a true understanding that causes these denominational battles to settle down and reach some much greater degree of agreement.

NKJ Ephesians 4:1-16 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." 9 (Now this, "He ascended "-- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) 11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head-- Christ--16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

When the Body is doing this, we'll have a Biblical Theology. We'll always have the immature to raise to maturity, but this fractured nonsense claiming maturity will be over and we'll corporately be strong against any false teaching. But, we're not there yet unless there is one denomination among us who has it all right. And of course every one of them says they are the one that does. This corporate maturity is not going to come about by these merry-go-round, go-nowhere, battles over everyone's chose "___ism."

His determinate foreknowledge

“him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If you wanted to make a perfect plan and had the power to see the end of things and what others would choose. If you could see and know it all before hand your plan is going to be without fail. Even if man thinks at times you failed because they don’t understand your plan may take along long time but because you had foreknowledge of the outcome you have made a perfect plan that cannot be disjointed and ruined

But if you make a plan and don’t know the outcome make the plan without that foreknolwedge how does one know it will succeed ?

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

man keeps hearing the options God gives us and choosing the wrong one

adam had a choice in Eden also the tree of life or the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

When we read of predestination , it’s because zgod saw the end in the beginning that’s how he’s able to foretell the future even what choices israel would make . He knew hey would break his covenant when he made it

Watch who gets the blame when zgod foretells what’s going to happen

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

( he’s telling Moses what would happen after he died because he has foreknolwedge )

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Does it make sense God would blame them for his choice ?

“Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Would you agree God didn’t choose this for israel but they chose it themselves ? And do you see how if I know beforehand what’s going to happen I can then prophecy long before it happens ? And how I can also determine that those I see that accepted Christ and chose the good I can speak of them as if it’s all predetermined ? But really it’s because he sees what’s to come also including man’s choices

Your reply is incorrect.

Here is the verse from Luke again.

Luke 8:7
Other seed fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it and choked it out.

Both the wheat and the thorns grew!

But over time the thorns choked the wheat.

The text definitely states that these folk were Christian and were growing.

Over time though they did not endure.

Calvinism will not recognize that these folk were Christians and growing at
any stage!

Tares grow also, and are imperceptible from wheat.
It's a poor proof text for either position in this regard.

Absolutely WRONG conclusion.

This parable was given to the SOWERS OF THE SEED (the believing disciples), advising THEM, consoling THEM that the Word will not bear fruit everywhere to everyone all of the time. The unbelieving were totally in the dark about this parable, they would never understand it in their present state of unbelief.

In other words, do not be discouraged ***my disciples***......and keep broadcasting the seed, the Word.

Mat 13:13
Therefore speak I to ***them*** in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and ***their*** eyes they have closed; lest at any time ***they*** should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


Mat 13:16
But blessed are ***your*** eyes, for they see: and ***your*** ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17
For verily I say unto ***you***, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ***ye*** see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ***ye*** hear, and have not heard them

Mat 13:18
Hear ***ye*** therefore the parable of the sower.

Jesus then proceeds to give the explanation of the parable......TO THE BELIEVING DISCIPLES! And ONLY to the believing disciples.

Mat 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and ***their*** eyes THEY have closed;

Never.....ever....blame God for their blindness. Or anything else. Ever.

The verse you quoted is definitely identifying the nation of Israel.

"For this people's heart is waxed gross..."

In the given context Jesus makes it clear that "this people" is Israel.

The Gentiles would listen and respond the the gospel but not Israel.

I disagree, Cameron.

The wheat and the tares both grow together.

The wheat grows!

Then the wheat is strangled by the thorns.

Calvinism will not allow the wheat seed to germinate, let alone, grow, and then fall away.

You have ignored the context.

The context in chapter nine concerns Israel and the Gentiles.

Faith versus works.

Now read the context.

Romans 9:11-13
For though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Clearly, God's choice was not by works but by faith.

Which means that the older will serve the younger!

The earliest account of primogeniture to be widely known in modern times
involved Isaac's son Jacob being born second (Genesis 25:26) and Isaac's son,
Esau being born first (Genesis 25:25) and entitled to the birthright, but eventually
selling it to Jacob for a small amount of food (Genesis 25:31–34). (Wiki)

God reversed Esau's birth right.

Jacob the second born was elevated to the recipient of the first born birth right.

The older (Esau) will serve the younger (Jacob).

Chapter nine is all about the failure of Israel.

Israel was the first born, Israel was Esau.

Context, context, context.

Your cherry picked verse (Romans 9:13) in the context destroys your interpretation
of the scripture.

I already knew you disagreed. The other poster would disagree from the other point of view. But in my opinion, both of you are assuming your positions into the text.

Of course Israel responded. The early Church were all sons of Jacob. Yes they all should have, far too many did not.....but some did.

It was not until about 40-ish AD that Peter was called to the house of Cornelius to witness the first ever conversion of the gentiles.
The context of chapter 10 (Peters vision of the animals that God declared now clean) makes it clear that gentile conversion was a new phase in God's plan of redemption.

Act 10:15
And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Act 10:45
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Agree. The Reformers had a long loooong way to go before fully comprehending the Scriptures. With PLENTY of misapprehension, fails and faults to boot. Far too many IMO.

We are still cleaning up their messes today.