What is violence? Matt 11:12

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Burn1986

Active member
Mar 4, 2024
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#1
“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11‬:‭12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

To me, “violence” in this verse is talking about a strong decision and bold thought and speaking out boldly as spiritual warfare against the enemy.
This also implies that the Kingdom of Heaven is a spiritual realm that is accessed presently.
 
Apr 2, 2024
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#2
I take it to mean people were aggresively pursuing getting baptized by John
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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#3
“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11‬:‭12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

To me, “violence” in this verse is talking about a strong decision and bold thought and speaking out boldly as spiritual warfare against the enemy.
This also implies that the Kingdom of Heaven is a spiritual realm that is accessed presently.
Could be as your saying goven the contemporary verses

“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Also would sort of mean what you’re saying “ pressing forth “ like a strong and determined decision .

Seems legitimate .

just for thought Maybe Matthew is adding something else and he was talking about John being beheaded soon and that he would be tortured and beaten and crucified and they would after that but that it had started when John was beheaded soon after this encounter . I only say this because of the context there

“And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind? But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, Which shall prepare thy way before thee. ( Malachi 3:1 mark 1:2-3)

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:7, 9-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he answered and told them, Elijah verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.

But I say unto you, That Elijah is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.
‭‭Mark‬ ‭9:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬


jesus seems to always be preparing them for rejection by the Jew and gentile and persecutions to follow beginning with John the first to preach faith in Christ and to recognize and announce Jesus as messiah.

And also was soon after beheaded. and he would later speak often about his impending suffering and death and also the persecutions and violence they would face for his names sake

Just another thought to consider often the gospel accounts notice different details of sre mans Jesus was giving and words he was telling them but in this case your thinking seems really plausible given it’s contemporary verse about all men “pressing into “the kingdom
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,148
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#4
“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11‬:‭12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

To me, “violence” in this verse is talking about a strong decision and bold thought and speaking out boldly as spiritual warfare against the enemy.
This also implies that the Kingdom of Heaven is a spiritual realm that is accessed presently.
“This also implies that the Kingdom of Heaven is a spiritual realm that is accessed presently.”

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

always until the end the kingdoms doors are open like the ark until the floods came suddenly

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s always present as long as the gospel of the kingdom is present but many won’t enter when they hear the invite today

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Its always an open invitation until the time is fulfilled again and the door closes
 

Burn1986

Active member
Mar 4, 2024
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#5
It can also be an obedience thing too.

Such as submitting to God, resisting the devil…

Sometimes saying “No” to temptation or stubbornly seeking God can be similar to violence.
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
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#6
It can also be an obedience thing too.

Such as submitting to God, resisting the devil…

Sometimes saying “No” to temptation or stubbornly seeking God can be similar to violence.
This is not similar to violence.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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#7
“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11‬:‭12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

To me, “violence” in this verse is talking about a strong decision and bold thought and speaking out boldly as spiritual warfare against the enemy.
This also implies that the Kingdom of Heaven is a spiritual realm that is accessed presently.
Jesus is speaking about the zealots who thought they could use violence to bring in the Kingdom.
 

Burn1986

Active member
Mar 4, 2024
918
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#9
This is not similar to violence.
Yeah it is. Violence sometimes is toward the enemy and the flesh. If you ever decide to really seek God on your own, you will face resistance. In the Old Testament God rewarded violence at times. This was an example to us of spiritual warfare. Turning away from sin and the flesh almost takes a violent mindset at times, similar to an “iron will”.
 
Dec 27, 2018
1,642
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63
#10
“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11‬:‭12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

To me, “violence” in this verse is talking about a strong decision and bold thought and speaking out boldly as spiritual warfare against the enemy.
This also implies that the Kingdom of Heaven is a spiritual realm that is accessed presently.
In the context,Jesus was speaking of John the Baptist who was in prison at the time.
Afterward Jesus condemns the cities of Israel for not repenting and says it will be more tolerable for Sodom in the day of judgement than for those cities.
 

montana123

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2021
856
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63
#11
“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11‬:‭12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

To me, “violence” in this verse is talking about a strong decision and bold thought and speaking out boldly as spiritual warfare against the enemy.
This also implies that the Kingdom of Heaven is a spiritual realm that is accessed presently.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

John the Baptist is the start of the plan to redeem mankind for the prepared the way for Jesus.

That is why is says from the time of John the Baptist until the time Jesus said this the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and since it says the violent take it by force then it is in a positive sense for if it was in a negative sense they would not be able to take it.

I believe it means that people were very determined to obtain salvation, and highly zealous of having eternal life, and it showed outward in enthusiasm.

That is the way we should be violent to enter heaven where we are beating on the door until out hands are bloody, and tore up.

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Do not be lukewarm but be violent.

Joh 7:32 The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him.
Joh 7:45 Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him?
Joh 7:46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.

Be like Jesus who spoke so boldly to the officers that it frightened them, and cast doubt in their mind, and they thought we better leave this man alone for if He is telling the truth we do not want to be going against God.

For if Jesus was not speaking to them that He was of God, and to heed His words they would of not been frightened to arrest Him, so Jesus was saying He is of God, and they better heed what He is saying.

Be violent.

Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Save some with fear by being bold to tell them the truth, and the consequences they will face if they do not heed the word of God.

Prophesy is one way to put fear in them by telling them all the destruction, and chaos that shall come upon the world when the fallen angels get to influence the world to rebel against God for He is ready to end sin on earth.

When they see it come to pass they will ponder on what you said which is why I point out that the new age movement will cause the world to rebel against God, and the New Age Christ will push the agenda of the new age movement, and the world will be divided in to 10 sections with a leader in each section, and the Pope and Vatican will go along with it, and other things so when they see it they might turn to the truth.

It is good for a Christian to know the details about the end time so when people see it happening they might turn to Jesus.

But a Christian does not need to know the details for all they have to know is if they go against God, and Jesus as Lord and Savior, and go against the word of God, or a false interpretation like the new age movement, then do not go along with them.

But for the sake of the world it is good for the Christians to know the details, and the more the better.

For an example like the Mexican Illegal Immigrant problem that the United States does not do much to stop it, and do not put much pressure on Mexico to keep their people out, but that is because they want the problem to get out of control, and out of hand, and Mexico is in on it, and then the solution will be to merge Mexico and America and the problem is solved, along with Canada as 1 nation out of 10 nations of the world.

When they see it happen it does good because they will think upon that which there are many things to say concerning what will go down in the future to cause people to think about it.

Telling people about God, and Jesus, is great, but I believe the saints should get involved in knowing what is going to happen in the future so people can see it happen and might turn to Jesus especially when the new age movement will give a different interpretation of the Bible, and Science is going to say the Bible is the truth, and the world should embrace it, but they will give the new age movement interpretation, and say people have been interpreting the Bible wrongly.

Which Science right now is involved with making all things compatible with the new age movement beliefs, and reality, saying they have new discoveries about everything, and they were wrong, giving them a new perspective of all things.

Which they had the same technology for many years, and now all of a sudden they have all these new discoveries giving them a new perspective of history, evolution, the universe, the origins of people, history, God, Jesus, the Bible, religions, the conscious, among other things.

But the new age movement has a timing for everything, and now is the time to give the people the mindset of the beliefs, and reality of the new age movement which they ae using the credibility of Science that relies on facts, and proof, to do it.

Which Science will take the position of the new age movement belief of evolution which they believe in evolution, but not according to the world view Darwinian viewpoint for they do not believe humans evolved from apes, but they believe they are of the same lineage, but they did not evolve from apes, and they broke off from that lineage about 7 million years ago.

They believe aliens are going to help mankind have peace, advance, and evolve, which they talk about the return of the gods.

Which Science is busy saying they have proof aliens exist, and they received a laser message from 140,000,000 miles away, and say humans are not from the earth, and the world needs to prepare for an alien encounter.

But they need to convince them that Lucifer is a god, and a alien, and he is the good guy, that gave mankind intelligence, and will cause them to evolve along with the New Age Christ, and is not a fallen angel for there is no personal God.

So they will probably set the stage for hostile aliens attacking the earth, and Lucifer and the aliens with him defeating them and saving the world to get the world to trust Lucifer.

Which will be by an emergency alert on phones, radio, and television.
 

Burn1986

Active member
Mar 4, 2024
918
212
43
#12
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

John the Baptist is the start of the plan to redeem mankind for the prepared the way for Jesus.

That is why is says from the time of John the Baptist until the time Jesus said this the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and since it says the violent take it by force then it is in a positive sense for if it was in a negative sense they would not be able to take it.

I believe it means that people were very determined to obtain salvation, and highly zealous of having eternal life, and it showed outward in enthusiasm.

That is the way we should be violent to enter heaven where we are beating on the door until out hands are bloody, and tore up.

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Do not be lukewarm but be violent.

Joh 7:32 The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him.
Joh 7:45 Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him?
Joh 7:46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.

Be like Jesus who spoke so boldly to the officers that it frightened them, and cast doubt in their mind, and they thought we better leave this man alone for if He is telling the truth we do not want to be going against God.

For if Jesus was not speaking to them that He was of God, and to heed His words they would of not been frightened to arrest Him, so Jesus was saying He is of God, and they better heed what He is saying.

Be violent.

Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Save some with fear by being bold to tell them the truth, and the consequences they will face if they do not heed the word of God.

Prophesy is one way to put fear in them by telling them all the destruction, and chaos that shall come upon the world when the fallen angels get to influence the world to rebel against God for He is ready to end sin on earth.

When they see it come to pass they will ponder on what you said which is why I point out that the new age movement will cause the world to rebel against God, and the New Age Christ will push the agenda of the new age movement, and the world will be divided in to 10 sections with a leader in each section, and the Pope and Vatican will go along with it, and other things so when they see it they might turn to the truth.

It is good for a Christian to know the details about the end time so when people see it happening they might turn to Jesus.

But a Christian does not need to know the details for all they have to know is if they go against God, and Jesus as Lord and Savior, and go against the word of God, or a false interpretation like the new age movement, then do not go along with them.

But for the sake of the world it is good for the Christians to know the details, and the more the better.

For an example like the Mexican Illegal Immigrant problem that the United States does not do much to stop it, and do not put much pressure on Mexico to keep their people out, but that is because they want the problem to get out of control, and out of hand, and Mexico is in on it, and then the solution will be to merge Mexico and America and the problem is solved, along with Canada as 1 nation out of 10 nations of the world.

When they see it happen it does good because they will think upon that which there are many things to say concerning what will go down in the future to cause people to think about it.

Telling people about God, and Jesus, is great, but I believe the saints should get involved in knowing what is going to happen in the future so people can see it happen and might turn to Jesus especially when the new age movement will give a different interpretation of the Bible, and Science is going to say the Bible is the truth, and the world should embrace it, but they will give the new age movement interpretation, and say people have been interpreting the Bible wrongly.

Which Science right now is involved with making all things compatible with the new age movement beliefs, and reality, saying they have new discoveries about everything, and they were wrong, giving them a new perspective of all things.

Which they had the same technology for many years, and now all of a sudden they have all these new discoveries giving them a new perspective of history, evolution, the universe, the origins of people, history, God, Jesus, the Bible, religions, the conscious, among other things.

But the new age movement has a timing for everything, and now is the time to give the people the mindset of the beliefs, and reality of the new age movement which they ae using the credibility of Science that relies on facts, and proof, to do it.

Which Science will take the position of the new age movement belief of evolution which they believe in evolution, but not according to the world view Darwinian viewpoint for they do not believe humans evolved from apes, but they believe they are of the same lineage, but they did not evolve from apes, and they broke off from that lineage about 7 million years ago.

They believe aliens are going to help mankind have peace, advance, and evolve, which they talk about the return of the gods.

Which Science is busy saying they have proof aliens exist, and they received a laser message from 140,000,000 miles away, and say humans are not from the earth, and the world needs to prepare for an alien encounter.

But they need to convince them that Lucifer is a god, and a alien, and he is the good guy, that gave mankind intelligence, and will cause them to evolve along with the New Age Christ, and is not a fallen angel for there is no personal God.

So they will probably set the stage for hostile aliens attacking the earth, and Lucifer and the aliens with him defeating them and saving the world to get the world to trust Lucifer.

Which will be by an emergency alert on phones, radio, and television.
- That is why is says from the time of John the Baptist until the time Jesus said this the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and since it says the violent take it by force then it is in a positive sense for if it was in a negative sense they would not be able to take it.-

Yes! 👍
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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#13
From the time of John the Baptist until now; I view this as speaking of the time, current to the time of Jesus speaking and including the time of John the Baptist's 'voice crying in the wilderness, "repent!"

the kingdom of heaven suffers violence; I view this in the same sense as Jesus saying, "suffer the children to come unto me," that is, "let them come..." so also, "the kingdom of heaven 'allows' violence"...and a look at the grammar of "suffers violence" using Strong's Greek Lexicon (biazetai) is indicated as a verb-present indicative middle or passive-3rd person singular, and according to Lesson 12 Koine Greek - GitHub,

The present indicative middle and passive forms are exactly the same12. The difference between the two is function rather than form2. In the passive voice, the subject receives the action, while in the middle voice, the subject is participating in the results of the action1. It can be difficult to tell if the verb is passive or middle, but the context of the passage will indicate whether the verb is middle or passive in function2.

so, it seems to me, this could be rephrased as something like, the kingdom of heaven has taken an offensive position as opposed to its characteristic policy of a 'guarded' territory.

It is my opinion that Jesus' declaration of His intent toward the annexation of additional territory, and not just heaven but also his claim on earth also as His kingdom (after His siege upon it).
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,159
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#14
After all, the god of this world isn't willing to "give it up" to Him, and no less to you, so easily. So then, We must "take it by force."
As the proverb says, there is a time, and if my clock is right, it looks like we (have been and) are in that time.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,159
2,174
113
#15
...And, if my line of thinking is valid, and sound, what then would the implications be upon the adoption of the Calvinist's claim that it is not possible that we can, indeed, "take it by force?... :unsure:
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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#16
When Jesus spoke these words we read in Matthew chapter 11 verse 12, He was on the verge of beginning His Ministry. The Religious Leaders knew about both arrivals of the Messiah, one being lowly and despised and the other as King of kings and Ruler over all. And they were in a time of dismay with the Romans so they clearly believed the Messiah, should He arrive at that time, would be to defeat Rome and relieve them of their suffering. They wanted a Violent Messiah to bring fire upon Romans and consume them and free the Jews.

So it seems it's a possible word play here with Jesus in Matthew chapter 11. But the truth of the matter is, Jesus did violently bring into the world the Kingdom of Heaven. He cast out demons numerously, He healed, He taught men how to battle Spiritually, He suffered a violent Death, He went and took the Keys to the Grave and Death by "force," He Resurrected and gave Hope, and when He ascended He sent back Power through the Holy Spirit so Believers could continue doing as Jesus did.

It was WAR that Jesus brought and even today we are in the middle of it even though the end is near.

Jesus attacked a world bound by SIN and formatted War against Sin. And as Spiritual this WAR is, it's bloody at times in the nature of it.

Ever seen a real Spiritual Attack and Casting out of demonic powers?
It's a Battle of Violence.
It does not want to leave.
Even in some examples when Jesus cast them out they still threw the person down or caused one last wound before being forced to leave.
It's a literal WAR going on.
The Kingdom of Heaven has one enemy. Without God, that enemy will devour you. So God is necessary to win and defeat it. Violence.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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#17
34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

51 Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division.
 

Burn1986

Active member
Mar 4, 2024
918
212
43
#18
There are times whe
When Jesus spoke these words we read in Matthew chapter 11 verse 12, He was on the verge of beginning His Ministry. The Religious Leaders knew about both arrivals of the Messiah, one being lowly and despised and the other as King of kings and Ruler over all. And they were in a time of dismay with the Romans so they clearly believed the Messiah, should He arrive at that time, would be to defeat Rome and relieve them of their suffering. They wanted a Violent Messiah to bring fire upon Romans and consume them and free the Jews.

So it seems it's a possible word play here with Jesus in Matthew chapter 11. But the truth of the matter is, Jesus did violently bring into the world the Kingdom of Heaven. He cast out demons numerously, He healed, He taught men how to battle Spiritually, He suffered a violent Death, He went and took the Keys to the Grave and Death by "force," He Resurrected and gave Hope, and when He ascended He sent back Power through the Holy Spirit so Believers could continue doing as Jesus did.

It was WAR that Jesus brought and even today we are in the middle of it even though the end is near.

Jesus attacked a world bound by SIN and formatted War against Sin. And as Spiritual this WAR is, it's bloody at times in the nature of it.

Ever seen a real Spiritual Attack and Casting out of demonic powers?
It's a Battle of Violence.
It does not want to leave.
Even in some examples when Jesus cast them out they still threw the person down or caused one last wound before being forced to leave.
It's a literal WAR going on.
The Kingdom of Heaven has one enemy. Without God, that enemy will devour you. So God is necessary to win and defeat it. Violence.
Yep Agreed 👍
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
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#19
I believe Matthew 11:12 is saying that the violent and satanic force that killed John the Baptist will continue until Jesus Christ, the King of kings and Lord of lords returns at the second advent—the 7th trump. —selah
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
4,761
2,054
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#20
Yeah it is. Violence sometimes is toward the enemy and the flesh. If you ever decide to really seek God on your own, you will face resistance. In the Old Testament God rewarded violence at times. This was an example to us of spiritual warfare. Turning away from sin and the flesh almost takes a violent mindset at times, similar to an “iron will”.
As long as you know what it means that’s fine.
But to me and most others who don’t make mashed potatoes out of languages, that’s not what it means.