Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

Your quotation is not saying what you think it is saying.

...inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Click to expand...

The kingdom, the reward, was predestined from the foundation of the world.

Why not?

Why would God be proud of them, the sheep?

The sheep were controlled by God from the start to the finish.

The sheep were unable to exert their own will.

The sheep were saved before they were born.

Maybe I am not understanding the post, but what I am reading is God causes people to do evil and because God punishes them for doing something they had no control over we should worship God even more.

That's the sovereign will of God at work and it is marvelous in our eyes.

I met an orphaned girl seeking her mother, she was about 25 years old.

She was dropped off at an orphanage not long after she was born.

My mother had no address to give this poor girl and she got up and left.

I will never forget that event and it still haunts me today.

I imagined this young girl at 10 years old, wondering why the other
girls had mothers and fathers but she did not.

She more than likely was damned from eternity.

I will spend night and day worshiping our merciful God.

Obviously, you are experiencing a disconnection between the sovereign will
of God and the will of man.

Adam was predestined to eat the fruit, God's perfect will at work.

You can concentrate even more on that agape love that God has
for the elect, chosen from eternity.

Man's choices ultimately are all predetermined.

That is Calvinism.

They do profound evil because they are not elect from eternity.

Do you understand?

They are born evil and from that path they never depart.

How could they do something good, they bear no fruit, no agape love?

That is God's sovereign will.

What don't you understand.

Everyone was born wicked, sinful, they cannot ever choose God.

Nor can they do anything but what their evil nature dictates.

They are born with a fallen nature.

They do evil all the time because that is their default state.

Surely you understand the sovereign will of God?

Sounds like a comic book to me or some kind of pagan myth.

Okay believe as you will.

Not really, you do not acknowledge the power of the written word and the message of the Gospel of salvation.

God would never send a message to lost people that was insufficient for lost people to respond to!!

People perish because they refuse.
The Gospel is God's life giving truth.

BELIEVING ( belief according to ancient understanding of the concept) is the prerequisite according to the Sovereign God - He gets to decide the rules not the Reformed Doctrine.

Seems to me like the Reformed doctrine is correcting God!

1. God loves His sheep. Of course He’s proud of them.
2. Yep, God intercedes in the lives of His sheep.
3. The sheep always desire to do God’s will. (Don’t you? Are you a sheep?)
4. Yep. The sheep were justified and saved from the foundation of the world.

—Selah

That is the philosophy of determinism.

That is also what the interpretation of Calvinism means.

Total Depravity is the inability of man to be righteous, to choose God,
to love anything but themselves.

It's not a comic book by any means.

Total Depravity has only one meaning, man is utterly evil.

So you are a Calvinist then?
So your God is equal parts Love and Hate.

Or are you playing devil's advocate, I am a little confused since I thought I remember your posts being against the tenets of Calvinism.

Of course total depravity is evil. But Jesus died to totally destroy evil (total depravity) and make whoever will believe in Him righteous—saved.

—Selah

Yes, they are saved from the foundation of the world because Christ's atonement
was an eternal atonement. This cannot be debated or denied.

You are incorrect on point three, I have never witnessed anyone that always
desires to do God's will. Rather that internal conflict, flesh versus the spirit,
determines how often God's will is performed.

I have that internal conflict that never eases.

Sometimes I am a sheep and other times a goat.

I never trust myself, how could I boast?

All the glory belongs to Christ alone.

Too bad then. You just need to repent every time you turn into a goat.

The gospel saves? Apart from the Spirit of God? What is the power of the Gospel that saves?
Everyone responds to the Gospel. They do so based on the condition of their hearts. The heart itself is the wellspring of life. It controls every thought, every word, and every action a person has and does.
So what is the condition of the natural heart?


If you have the doctrine of man wrong, you will also get some of the doctrine of God wrong inevitably.

You believe fallen man can do things redeemed man is incapable of. Jesus told His disciples that they could do nothing apart from Him. Yet, you believe fallen man can do things that saved people can't. They can get saved apart from Jesus.

I believe that the Holy Spirit works constantly throughout human history.

On all people and at somewhat different levels of conviction.

I have known unbelievers that have compassion, empathy for others.
Way more than I have at times. Some of them worry about others, some
sacrifice their own lives in social welfare.

Some unbelievers are very good folk and would put many Christians
to shame.

Total Depravity in it's logical application is an incorrect doctrine.

There is interplay between the Holy Spirit and everyone out there.

The sad truth is that many out there cannot respond effectively
to the proclamation of the gospel. Most cannot endure in the long
term.

I choose to believe that Christian or even an unbeliever will never understand,
the mystery of God's election.

There are numerous things that are beyond human reasoning.

It is hard to repent when that inner conflict is daily, weekly, monthly, yearly.

Ooops, I am morphing again.