Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

I don't know why this concept seems so difficult to so many.

@Cameron143 has the understanding that man has not lost his faculties. I agree.

It seems very simple that fallen man is still able to to realize that there has to be something better and to seek it. And within this realization it also seems simple that some realize the mess of life they found themselves in was based in decisions they had made and nonsense they had listened to from men. IOW, the realization can be very simple - if the someone of Rom1 created the creation, then He likely has a vastly greater knowledge of things than the so-called experts among men and than me.

Ultimately like I stated before, it is not the nature of fallen man which needs to be defined but whether or not the nature of the GOSPEL, God’s inspired Word, is sufficient to enable a fallen man to respond to its appeal.

I believe it is and this is why.....otherwise God is ultimately responsible for man’s unbelief.

This is not established in scripture, it just is not.

I understand your position, but it doesn't take into account the condition of man's heart. Romans 1 isn't the only passage dealing with salvation. If it were, I could go along with your assessment. But it isn't. And the Bible has much more to say about the condition of fallen man, the process of salvation, and even who God is and how He accomplishes His purposes.

because it isn't theology; it's philosophy.

You didn't express a view on my other point.



Did that answer your other question?

The "teacup":

[Jhn 3:19-20 KJV]
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

I understand.

So much more indeed!

John Piper is quoted as saying, “God is the one Being in all the universe for whom seeking his own praise is the ultimate loving act. For him, self-exaltation is the highest virtue.”

Others state, " God chooses to empty Himself for the sake of worthless humanity in the ultimate act of love on Calvary. This act, when accepted by faith the condition set by God (not God performs on our behalf) brings exultation and glory to God.

Two diametrically opposed doctrines but the later is all throughout scripture.

They actually are one and the same. The cross is the ultimate exaltation of God.

Downtrodden, they pray, “Lord, save me!” …

Auto correct error *exaltation*

I try to keep my posts short but they are not the same, one is the God who is responsible for unbelief the other is not.

Man can believe all kinds of lies but he cannot believe the truth.

Man has to be rendered utterly bereft of reason in order for God to magnify Himself.

This "philosphy" often appeals to people of certain personality types and there is some good work on the personality of Augustine who formulated this view.

If you are interested and have not come across it ...I can send you the link since you are a studier.

Scripture never states man cannot be persuaded by truth and has many instances where indeed people are persuaded.

You have it backwards. God is responsible for salvation. Man is responsible for his own actions. It is only your misunderstanding of God and His ways, and the condition of man's fallen heart that lead you to believe otherwise. Take a look at post 5945.

I looked at it.

Not really talking about the goodness of man.

If man is incapable/totally depraved/totally unable to respond to the truth of Gospel message and scripture and God does not give the person a changed heart first/enables as you assert, as a prerequisite to salvation, then God is responsible for unbelief and I will go one step further Jesus sets up the people for failure.

And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand:
Matthew 5:10

Can you own the logical result of this interpretation?

You believe man is good because it appears he does some good things. But God doesn't look at deeds, but upon the heart. He concerned not with actions, but the motivations behind them.
Let's use a biblical example in Isaiah 58. God, through the prophet, is telling Israel of their sin using the way of their fasting. At first it seems He is complimenting them...verse 2. They seem to seek Him, desire to know His ways, keep His ordinances, and delight to approach Him. Why then is the prophet commanded to cry out against Israel to show them their transgression?...verse 1.
God goes on to show them that their outward attendance to these matters is not what He requires. If they truly had a heart for God and understood His ways, and were keeping His ordinances, their practices would be very different. Not only would they do these things, but in doing them their focus would be God and others, and not themselves.
Anyone viewing their outward behavior would believe that they were doing good. But God looks upon the heart, and saw only evil.

So there are none that are good. Not because men can't do good things. Jesus said as much...ye being evil know how to give good gifts to your children...Matthew 7:11. Men aren't evil because they don't do good things. They are evil continually because they do so from the wrong motivation. Their hearts are evil...Jeremiah 17:9. This is why it is necessary to receive a new heart...Ezekiel 36:26. And this is what God does in salvation.

Biblical Faith.

The "teacup":

[Jhn 3:19-20 KJV]
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

I don't want to assume so I will ask whether it is your evaluation of those that were deemed to be righteous within the scriptures are so-called because they became, or rather were 'made' do gooders?

It is my opinion that these were accounted as righteous because they came to agreement with scripture that their heart was evil (here I say continually, although you would say continuously). I think we view Job different in that sense also, Of all that Job said in defense of the unfairness, God rebuked him for even presuming that He knew anything about righteous judgment and the only merit ascribed to Job as righteousness is at the moment Job put his hand to his mouth and confessed his ignorance of 'things too great for me' after an entire chapter of speaking and displaying the full spectrum of his foolishness.

Why do you think there are no fallen men who ever worship God in spirit and in truth? Do you also think there are no fallen men who worship God? If so, why do you believe that?

They were given new hearts. Salvation hasn't changed from the very beginning. It has simply been explained gradually.