There will be no Rapture!!!

Actually, Wrath only happens when God's hands are taken away. And the Witnesses aren't harmed until before they are Raptured + they are unleashing more Wrath than anyone. So anyone saved is pretty well protected.

6 These have authority to shut heaven, that rain fall not in the days of their prophecy, and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague as often as they will.

Notice John uses [THESE] [THEY] (many) not them for just 2 Witnesses..

Where did you ever get that idea that God's wrath is defined as His removing His Hands? Whose hands are opening those seals, the first four of which cause the death of a fourth of the earth's human population, and Who released those seven angels, the trumpet blasts of which also bring about additional deaths that total at least half the entire earth's human population? Who is the One who released all that WRATH upon the earth and its inhabitants?

The Lord doesn't need anyone to defend Him against the very fury of which He reveals is from His own Hands! No amount of allegoricalization will ever hide the very Hands that release all that wrath and fury upon the earth and its inhabitants!

Nice try, but no dice. You're barking up the wrong olive tree!

MM

Restrainer!

When the Restrainer is removed.

The Mass Groups of people having the full power of God equaling the church [lampstand] [olive trees] will be the Restrainer.

Zechariah had no problem alluding to the fact that all the wrath of the tribulation is from Yah's own Hands. He didn't try to defend the Lord's actions from being known to Israel as coming from His Hands! Where do you get this nonsense?!? How else will they realize that He is the One whom they had pierced?!?

I hope you give this some more thought before trying to argue against the obvious!

MM

You're trying to dance around the obvious error of your reasoning! Never mind the persecutions arising from the man of sin no longer being restrained. Those horsemen, those trumpet blasts and those vials are not restrained by he who restrains!

Come on! Please address what I asked of you!

MM

You just don't want to admit that God can protect His Own during the Tribulation.
I get it.
You lack Faith!

To Musicmaster ---I would like your opinion on Daniel 12:12 on the Blessed day and the 1335th day

There you go, deflecting away from the core question put to you? This is so typical of your tactics! Going to ad hominem crap like this seems to be the only defense from those who hold to the weaknesses of pre-wrath! Why is that? Your refusal to answer as to Who REALLY is the One releasing all that fury upon the earth and its inhabitants is the same kind of trash I've seen from Steven Anderson!

You really should not try to discuss this topic until you show a willingness to intellectual honesty in relation to the questions asked of you!

MM

I already know your position. You've painted it numerous times. It's obvious you want no part of Tribulation even if God was protecting you and you had the full power of God to use against evil.

There is no protection for the saints in the tribulation. It is stated by Yah that the man of sin will be given power to overcome them. It is ONLY ISRAEL, those who flee into the desert, who will be protected and cared for by Yah over there around the area of Petra as the likely region where the Israelites will find refuse for the last half once the great tribulation hits starting in the second half.

So, you continue to ignore and deny Whose Hands will open and release ALL the wrath and judgements upon the earth.

That is so very typical of the tactic for defending the indefensible.

Are YOU a follower of REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY?

MM

Apparently... he has 'the pope has spoken' syndrome.

Only after mid point. But not before during first 3 1/2 years.

In this life, people who think like you, are designed to be a tribulation to be dealt with by those who are willing to grow in grace and truth.

Why should only the very last of the church go through the Tribulation, and not the whole church as a body?

They do.

Prove my Two Witnesses wrong using scripture.

You can't.

But try anyways so I can get a good laugh.

I don't see where the Greek words "outos [G3778]" ('these') and "autos [G846]" ('their') carry the meaning of "many".

It certainly can refer to the "two" witnesses, no problem.





It's not really proper grammar to say, "Them have authority to..." (lol)









[the other problem with your viewpoint being that the "two witnesses" finish their 1260-day ministry and are killed (and then ascend up to heaven) all AFTER the MID-trib point (which MID-trib point is at the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth"), so this is even AFTER Satan "having great wrath" had commenced back at MID-trib (if you're one who counts only Satan's "wrath" as being of import--this still comes AFTER that starts, in the chronology, so still not making sense). Not to mention, the "two witnesses" are said to "ascend" up to heaven, it never states they are "raptured [harpazo'd - snatched]" (Neither was Jesus, when He ascended, or journeyed up to heaven in the sight of His disciples )]

Olive Tree and Lampstand has never meant single person only groups of people. Learn your Hebrew.

Fairly agree.

I also believe "the 144,000" (of each of the tribes of Israel listed in Rev7) will be "sealed" (presumably for protection, based on the wording in 7:3 [see 8:6-10]), and "sealed" before the 1st Trumpet commences, so PRIOR TO the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth" MID-trib point, and therefore also prior to the point when the "2 Witnesses" conclude their 1260-day ministry and are killed and then ascend up to heaven at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" time-slot (AFTER MID-trib).




[I believe the "2W's" 1260 days stretch from "1st Trumpet" to "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe"--thus STRADDLING the two halves, somewhat (being distinct from either "half" though overlapping each)]

Zech 4 -

Zec 4:12-14
And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Then said he, These are the two anointed ones [or, 'sons of oil'], that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.









[note: in Romans 11, there is ONE "olive tree" (vv.17,24) that the Gentiles are grafted into... not two. Why is that?]

Since we've all concluded that there will be no pre-trib rapture, because the Lord is able to keep His own safe even within fire and the worst of circumstances, can we move on now?

And we are absolutely correct: it's silly to suggest that the Lord will withdraw the troops just prior to victory. Instead He will give all who are His everything needed for an abundant life. You know, like setting a table in the midst of our enemies.

And yet, 2Th1:7-9 states,

7 Ye who are troubled REST WITH US IN THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST from heaven with his mighty angels [i.e. having 7 Trumpets! 7 Vials! Hello!--OVER SOME TIME!],


8 In flaming fire [COMP. Lam2:3-4! (ponder "when" that had been)]
taking vengeance on [COMP. Lk18:8 w/ Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1--the "IN QUICKNESS" time-period we call "the Trib"!]
them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [SAME PEOPLE that 2Th2:10-12 speaks of, when "HE SHALL SEND TO THEM strong delusion, SO THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI"--DURING THE TRIB YEARS! Not merely for the split-second of His "RETURN" in Rev19! NO!]


9 Who shall be ['FUTURE' to the above] punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power [i.e. at His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19]









Verses 7-8 is covering a SPANS OF TIME, i.e. the Trib yrs (not merely the time of His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19, as many suppose)




[the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period per Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1 (i.e. the Trib yrs) parallels the wording in both Lk18:8 (as I mentioned) AND Rom16:20a]