Where Wisdom Lies

as this is what you say to just about everyone in every thread you post in, I will appreciate it as you mean it. Thank you

In other words ''this OP is unnecessarily complicated and 'just' vague enough to engender responses that indicate an understanding not intended by the author.''

As is often the case we may imbibe meanings that on face value are at least a plausible and implied 'likely' claim. That's your claim I am writing about of course.

This OP was very simple to read, and whilst it contained a small number of meanings, those meanings are contained in the words that direct to a self evident need to at least use a lexicon to try and understand those words. The vagueness you are likely speaking about may be no more than a refusal to meet the text with a rational mind. And I do mean a rational mind. I do NOT mean a renewed mind, I mean a natural rational mind.

It can hardly matter how a believer receives revelation (Ministry Text, Canon of Scripture, and of course personal testimony) insofar as such receipt is NOT too outside the need for testing, and this is chiefly because when the Holy Spirit speaks to us, He speaks through our living spirits, and it is that reception and its source TO US directly that speaks to our natural minds, and if we are a prophet or else a spiritually minded person then that effect serves to contribute to the renewing of the mind, whilst also knowing by faith, that we have the mind of Christ - because we have Christ in us.

The paradox of complexity only really occurs when we have to address psychological and emotional realities in our lives, and all too often we have in some very real measure been broken by life before we even know how to write our woes and our grateful thanks. If we were not in such a mind when we came to Christ then we would almost certainly need to experience the conviction of sin and the utter dread of realising what sin is and how Holy and Righteous the Father in Heaven IS to a depth that the thief & the liar does not need to experience because he knows that he is a sinner and so his relief comes more easily than the man who believes his conduct is acceptable to God because he is NOT a thief and a liar.

Yet because this conviction (of both men - thief & lair - and truthful & honest man) is by the Holy Spirit, so the benefit of Complexity is either wilfully provoked or it may be unanticipated to the person who is commenting. What cannot be avoided, however, is the need to begin with an entirely rational mind - before trying to revive ones faith, as well, refine (test) ones faith, and genuinely arrive at a true deliverance from our NATURAL MINDS - without breaking it by spiritual ordinances of God that ultimately require us to fathom that in Christ we are crucified IN HIM (Romans 6:6) - yet not I but Christ.

The very same refectory is also expressed canonically when we read, "NOT I - BUT CHRIST". Galatians 2:20 yet that meaning is declarative and serves as a confession of faith because it serves to remind our enemies that it is Christ who lives in us" and so it is "Not I, but Christ who lives in me". That declarative is not a pre forma of words, it is expressly in the same meaning as the Scripture that tells us that no man can say that Christ is Lord, expect by the Holy Spirit. So who gave the Mormon the power to so declare that Christ is Lord when in his doctrine, Christ is the spiritual brother of Satan? Who gave the Mormon that power? The Mormon gave the Mormon the power to be the Mormon - but his words do NOT disclose him - only his doctrine. AND that is the essence of the difficulty with complexity and seeking to avoid it. It is the knowing by faith that Christ is Lord and NOT by vocative agreement.

There are at least two very clear and undoubted witnesses in this OP to what I have said in this regard and both are misunderstood. So the scene itself then provides an unanticipated consequence, and our natural minds may be provoked to excess so that our thinking removes any true spiritual value even when we make rational statements. Our minds are already removed in that instant from any natural benefit to anything that is in fact classified as natural wisdom, because in that mind natural wisdom becomes the same as earth bound and demonic. (James 3:15). Being rational is NOT the same as being intellectual and neither is it the same as producing a 'revelaed' benefit of our words, UNLESS God Himself intervenes. And THEN almost anything at all is possible outwardly, whilst inwardly HE wrestles with the flesh and opens our ear to listen to HIM by His own elective means. And that could literally be any one of us.

Shalom

Thank you, I only see, that Jesus came here to earth, to give life to the people. He had to go through death first, to give reconciliation, it cleared the deck once for everyone as if no one ever sinned. This does not give life, it reconciles everyone, to clear the deck and separate Sin from Death. That being done, allows us to now enter into God 's gates with thanksgiving and praise, all sin forgiven. thanking God for it and then ask for the new life and receive it from God personally in the risen Son for them as a gift, not of any work. Only Son's done work. This world seems to function on , what I see is, a half sham gospel, you better do or else attitude as you spoke about in your post, this one says and that one says and we get no where but in flesh fight arguments
When the new life is in the risen Christ given by Father of risen Son to us to rest in and not fight anymore, learning contentment in all things good or bad that happen

I am not claiming to know more or better than anyone, I am in just as much need as anyone to have new life. I am not perfect, God is and proved this in taking away sin first as said in. John 1:29 In order to give new life to all that are sincere in belief to this gift, get it, yet there is a learning process in humility too

So are you rationally minded and spiritually minded? Does that apply to everyone?

"How does that sound?"

It sounds like you're quite determined to not answer a simple question, so you talk in circles to avoid answering.

Reminds me of Bill Clinton.
"It depends on what the definition of is is."
When we retreat into wholly unnecessary semantic arguments, as a smokescreen, when a question and it's context are both simple and easily understood, it's obvious to all we're just avoiding the question. Intentional obfuscation doesn't fool anyone; it's entirely transparent, and it just looks silly.



Conclusion:
I will simply presume you're a former politician, and therefore you may have some deep and constitutional inability, quite beyond your control, to answer any question directly or honestly.

God Bless.
I'll be on my way, and leave you to whatever it is you're doing.


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While reading yr op and thinking that is material for a good discussion, I was also sure it would be misunderstood and dragged in another direction...which happened pretty quick. This always bothers me...but this is a forum and people are going to be who they are or worse, hidden behind a device that protects them but not the rest of us. I am trying to state what I am thinking in a condensed way here, so maybe I'll miss the point somewhat, but anyway.

The reality for many is simply what is printed, the reality for some consists of goosebumps that anything that causes that must be
God and then variations on those two.

Agreed. Like interlocking pieces that fit together perfectly and the knowledge that God is, in fact, present and knows us both as we are and as His child.

I accepted Christ when I was only 5, did not have a sense of most of that and innocently walked into situations that made all of that only too real. I can honestly say that God saved me from myself as much as anyone or anything else.

I find myself nodding yes to that and thinking of how that works for the individual; not content with all the phrases and well received answers by many...I just cannot accept what so many seem to think is ok or 'hits the spot'. This is making sense to me.

Words mean little and less all the time. I am tired of words. Many years ago I expressed the desire to know God as He is and not as people say He is. There really are no words....only Christ looking steadily into your eyes and you do not look away. I am a visual artist and while I have not literally seen what I just described, I find often things are clairifed for me with a 'picture' in my mind if that makes sense. Sometimes that is good and sometimes I cannot say to someone what I see as the reality of their expression which is not evident in their words.

Thank you for your response.

"It is error only, not truth that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine

Tried to follow. Got overwhelmed. Wanted to note, though, that a tested Prophet at my church reported the definition of truth as presumably God gave it as "Spiritual reality."

I have come to understand this. Rhomphaeam said "TRUTH cannot be derived in living meaning unless it is by the hand of God" While I'm not sure that is exactly right, it sounds like he is getting at the reality that truth isn't based on the physical state of things, but something deeper - the spirit. For example, a man my buy a woman flowers and jewelry - those are facts, but whether or not he really loves her or not is a spiritual state that can't be proved by mere facts.

As for using words we can't define. Realize that the ability to define words is a specific skill that everyone doesn't possess equally, and that language has a spiritual component that is often just plan hard or even impossible to distill down into logical explanation. For example, maybe its a Prophet thing, but I can't tell you how many times I have found myself using a word I didn't really know the definition of, so I looked it up and found it to be more fitting than I could ever dream. And to learn about things we don't quite understand, we often need to practice.

I did feel it was fair to request the definition, though, as it might help Rhomphaeam to recognize where he needs to look more closely at things. Insisting on it is perhaps not.

A "tested prophet" so he must have passed the test, and so what test does your church use on the prophets?

The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going. Prov 14:15

While I have heard people claim 1 John 4:1 says not to believe not every prophet, but test the prophets whether that are of God, but even that is a merely a private interpretation of scripture.

I know the scriptures say not to believe every word, but to try the words whether they be of truth because there are many people who claim they are telling the truth but in 'reality' they are not. [See John 6:33]

"...and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. " Rom 16:18

For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Matt 6:21

But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. 1 Cor 7:33

Why would I ever put my hope in the assessments of men? We must each work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Therefore I asked God.

God started showing me the answer immediately. I still took like a year before I decided I was sure. As if that hadn't been enough, I at one point lived with this person and his family for a month. As if that hadn't been enough, I have now spent more than a decade of seeing the fruit of what accepting this man's gift does, and the evidence is now abundant and many times over irrefutable, though none of that came until I had faith in God's leading me.

I'm sure you mean well, but give me a little credit. First off, let's add to that list:

"Do not quench the Spirit; 20 do not despise prophetic utterances. 21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; 22 abstain from every form of evil." 1 Thess. 5:19-22.

It is indeed crucial to test, but we are also warned not to throw out that which is good. Both are failure. Please let me therefore exhort you also not to fall into either ditch.

Also, you don't know me, but my life is witness that I am one for testing and taking the hard roads when necessary: I have been standing up for God since I was 5, rejected an errant paradigm at 13 and helped my mom to understand, got baptized at 17, followed God out of my childhood church in my 20's, and more. Granted, this isn't the case with many (so-called?) Christians, so I don't blame you for being concerned.

Actually, God defines 'truth' as His word.

Jesus claimed that He is the truth (and the way and the life) And of course we do know Him as 'the Word' from the intro in Genesis, so there's that. Sounds like a person could be on to something

All these folks running around claiming to be prophets make so much clamor a person would not be able to hear an actual prophet, let alone give it a 'test.'

A lie is truth to those deceived by it.

don't think so for reasons given in the post above this one

I am very familiar with people calling themselves prophets and people lining up to 'hear' a word from these prophets

this is not a biblical practice. please do not say there were prophets in the NT and bring up Agabus.

I don't suppose I could ask which church you are member of? you sound an awful lot like someone I once knew and everything in her life had to be 'prophet' administered and believed. She was told she was going to get married by one and of course she did get married. That, is hardly a revelation though. It was an aspiration which she very much wanted fulfilled. She became a church secretary (at a church I attended) and went about supposedly representing the pastor....but she lied in order to advance her own standing in the church and eventually had a nervous breakdown.

It is a dangerous thing to play at being something you are not when claiming any gift. Those gifts will 'find you out'. There is more to the story, but I'll leave it there.

IMO, if people agree with extra-biblical so called revelation that goes AGAINST what the Bible states, do not believe it.

Can a person receive revelation about something? Yes I think they can. Such as a better comprehension of scripture and even future events. But don't follow prophets. Follow Christ. These things are not some kind of game. So much abuse of spiritual gifts these days.....it's a sign of great deception

note: I am not calling anyone a false prophet. God knows who they are.

Right. we don't know you and have no reason to refrain from asking questions

we don't know you. this is a forum where anyone can say anything and believe me, people do

perhaps do not be so quick as to imply we should say 'amen' just because you believe we should.

frankly, because this is a forum, I do not think it is the place to give people 'prophet' credentials.

I am either ignorant or know more than I say and no I do think myself to be a prophet.

There are complications but no, a lie is not spiritual reality by definition. If it is a lie it isn't reality.

The below, takes care of any more Prophets, for me. Seeing God lives in those that believe God and is available for those that do not yet, God speaks, we are to hear God within us, you think, I see it, as many others do too, but not religion, religion needs a leader another mediator above Jesus. Jesus does not attend a building Hebrews 8:1-4
Even though it is not claimed that way, it is claimed I been told by God. I say so have I. I say God loves us all 1 John 2:1-2

1 John 2:1-2

Authorized (King James) Version



2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

And see now, no more Prophets, amazing
Hebrews 1:1-4
Authorized (King James) Version


1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

yes. quite

like the complications in another thread where you did not care for my objections over what you were doing

That would be the thread where you call yourself a prophet (again) and even said you were seeking God on behalf of another member and that God would give you answers for him as to why he was not healed of something.

Well you also went to your 'roommate' cause, according to you, they do better at that sort of thing

your answer was not received.

I'll just say it again at the risk of boring people: A lie is truth to those deceived by it.

your friends defintion of truth is not what scripture states whether or not you desire to believe it to be true

I would tell you not to play with these things and give you very good and solid reasons why you should not, but we both know it will not be received. it is simple scripture that would dictate what I would say....I am not looking for words for anyone

I like this, true saying you put short and sweet, as I see to learn daily and not get distracted from God's love and mercy of Son for us all, thanks

Thanks for your responses. I enjoyed reading them and can see that you most assuredly have a sound mind to reason away from the psycho babble that is now amusingly raising, itched, and making more 'prophets' than a pig farmer would dare to shake a stick at during rutting. Of course that is largely a derived innate pathology that may be induced out of necessity for the one whose mind is far too fragile otherwise.

It is of course the 'old school' prophets, that take their course from the claimed inception of the so called "Prophetic School" under the claimed hand of the last Judge over Israel and the First Prophet over a Nation that asked for a King to be over them. And their reason was straight forward and real. Samuel's two sons were corrupt and neither would be a choice that Israel would tolerate. When they got their king, they got Saul, and his reign lasted just.a few weeks and then God rejected him from being king over Israel. In choosing David the most singular difference is that David could NOT lie against God or consult necropsy (Necromancy in physical dial of the body itself). Saul could and did in the end resort to that in the Necromancer of En'Dor. But before that he exploited his new standing, NOT as a king because he knew that God had rejected him, rather as a 'changed man' when he also knew that as long as Samuel covered him with the people, he could speak in the prophetic voice. He did endlessly and did so to satiate his personal condition of being endlessly and emotionally driven internally so that he thought his kingship were a greater thing than obedience to God.

Samuel, both his experience arsing out of his sons, and his being given into the Temple under the hand of Eli the High Priest, and HIS two sons who would tear the priesthood from his hands and throw it into the very spirit that has informed the prophetic schools for the last 200 years. Dagon - in type and kind.

What may be easily missed is that the more mature end of the "Prophetic School' have taken their claim to the Ministry and Office of Elisha. During his more than 50 year service to Israel he began the process of showing that compassion and mercy are NOT excluded from the Judgements of God and can be worked out in daily life. - Based as was in his time Israel in obedience to God and under the Law of God. It is akin to the NT voice of God when we read that we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. That continuance to the NT scope of Salvation is nothing less than Christ Himself. That mystery is what every man, woman or child MUST receive if they are in any way going to take confidence in God in the years ahead.

It is a remarkable study that is implied in the scope of the prophetic school that has been growing into an increasing occult practise that defies reason and resists all rebuke. What is missing is the connective tissue that will present the occult reality of a visible and vocatively asserted psychophysical umbilicus (an implied neurology) yet exceeding known boundaries of newtonian physics) even accepting Einstein.

Believe it or not, Sir Issac Newton was on that case during the years he was writing his seminal work in Mathematics.

My point here, in that regard, is that John Maynard Keynes spoke of Sir Issac Newton in 1946 at the Tercentennial celebration of Newton, and postulated the question, "why do I speak of Newton as a Magician?" Keynes like Elisha was deeply interested in the cerebral relationship between governance, statute and consequence arsing out of its implication. Modern societies have know for at least 300 years that material science and seeming connected events such as are more explained as 'psychical events' in para psychology and are reduced to either innate or else acquired psychological behaviour in outworking in clinical psychology - are measurably real. And it is ONLY to the extend that behaviour can be expressed as 'aberrant' that one can actually say that a persons behaviour is wrong.

Most of what I encounter in this forum has some of that character to is, and of course there are some clear leads to a more reasoned outcome. As I say, I enjoyed your comments.

The real question one would assume is are there any real prophets outside Agabus (in your correction you understand).

Just, read Hebrews Chapter 1 and continue on, you might find a lot about what is done by God for us through Son to us, and see God talks to his kids directly, and God reveals truth to us, his kids, such as
For me in my walk, God stuck this out to me Hebrews 5:12-Chapter 6. Also Chapter 10, really set me ablaze to see truth deeper, wider, higher and securely, it is God that has given and gives life to people, through his Son as risen for them. Those that believe God in this one work of Son for them. Are given this born new life to them. To learn new in as life continues forward. God who remains faithful in God's forgiveness, reconciliation. continues in his children and these children grow up spiritually maturely by God for them over time as one makes mistakes along the way