Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,004
401
83
I thought one of you would argue that point. So, in this verse you will argue that the English present simple tense, translating the Greek present tense, does not have to mean "all the time"; but for some reason, all those present simples in Romans 2 must mean "all the time". The reason being, your theological bias determines for you what the present simple must mean in any particular context, and every spiritually competent person must agree with your theological presuppositions, because those propositions are always right in your eyes.
So, are you now ready to admit that your interpretation of those Romans 3 passages you use to prove Total Depravity is only one of several possible interpretations of those verses?

Between his denying Jesus and his repenting, Peter was a lost sheep that belonged to Jesus. We know he was found, because he repented.
Judas Iscariot became a lost sheep and remained lost, if he did not repent.
So what is you point exactly again? Peter was a "lost sheep" but Jesus didn't find him? Jesus, for your info, never said that none of his sheep would ever stray. He just said, he wouldn't lose any -- which implies if any did stray, he'd find them -- because that is what Good Shepherds do.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,004
401
83
I chose my words judiciously.

I read English as English. When someone says "Joe is and engineer" I do not assume it means "Joe will always be an engineer and always was an engineer," as if it applies to all times: past, present and future. However, people who import their theological biases into biblical statements, may well convince themselves that "one of you is a devil" means that one was always a devil and will always be one.
So, when scripture says, "God is love", you do not assume he always was and always will be?
 

BillyBob

Active member
Dec 20, 2023
407
176
43
Texas
Judas Iscariot became a lost sheep and remained lost, if he did not repent.
I'm not sure why you call Judas a lost sheep. Please explain. The two following verses seem to prove otherwise. Am I missing something? I'm really trying to learn.

Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” 25 Judas, who would betray him, answered, “Is it I, Rabbi?” He said to him, “You have said so.”
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
I see in many posts about the descriptive analogy of what a sheep is from being stupid, weak, helpless, docile, blah blah blah.

People might have accepted God but until they overcome their sin nature by killing it daily, they will NEVER be sheep. Because a human with a sin nature still defies God. How many times did God give you the idea to feed someone, buy them something, do this for someone and you rejected to do it?

A REAL SHEEP would have their flesh killed to the point that God could tell them anything and immediately they just do it. That is what obeying the "Still Small" voice is all about.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,004
401
83
I'm not sure why you call Judas a lost sheep. Please explain. The two following verses seem to prove otherwise. Am I missing something? I'm really trying to learn.

Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” 25 Judas, who would betray him, answered, “Is it I, Rabbi?” He said to him, “You have said so.”
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
In addition to those, there is this:

John 17:12
12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
NIV


PT calls him a lost sheep because he doesn't believe in double predestination.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,004
401
83
I see in many posts about the descriptive analogy of what a sheep is from being stupid, weak, helpless, docile, blah blah blah.

People might have accepted God but until they overcome their sin nature by killing it daily, they will NEVER be sheep. Because a human with a sin nature still defies God. How many times did God give you the idea to feed someone, buy them something, do this for someone and you rejected to do it?

A REAL SHEEP would have their flesh killed to the point that God could tell them anything and immediately they just do it. That is what obeying the "Still Small" voice is all about.
So, tell us, please: Why does God in scripture call his people "sheep"?
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
113
If you notice, the ones who does what He tells them to do He calls sheep, not those who self proclaim they are saved.
The “sheep” are the Elect.
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

- John 10:27-28
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
The “sheep” are the Elect.
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

- John 10:27-28
The Sheep are those doing the Will of the Father. Paul said he kills his flesh daily. Then when God tells you to give, help, do this and that do you do it 100%? If not, then you either hear and purposefully reject God or are not hearing God at all.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
468
83
I'm not sure why you call Judas a lost sheep. Please explain. The two following verses seem to prove otherwise. Am I missing something? I'm really trying to learn.

Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” 25 Judas, who would betray him, answered, “Is it I, Rabbi?” He said to him, “You have said so.”
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
John 17:12
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them and kept them in the name you gave me and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that Scripture might be fulfilled.
John 6:37 Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and him that comes to me. I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Mark 3:13-14 ...and he called to him whom he would and they came to Him. And he ordained twelve, that they should be with Him, and that He might send them forth to preach.... 19. And Judas Iscariot...


Judas was called to Jesus and given to Jesus by the Father, not cast out by Jesus, but deserted Jesus and became lost.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
468
83
I always thought that this process began when the female egg became fertilized.
Why stop there? Why not claim the process of labour began with the creation of the world? WE were discussing labour, not gestation.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
468
83
Thanks for answering. I also asked where you see these definitions employed in scripture.

My point is, unless scripture uses your definition of savior, it still remains a definition but is not the definition employed in the scripture..
Show me a biblical text where my definition does not apply: where a saviour does not rescue people from harm that they could not deliver themselves on their own.
Judges 3:15 calls Ehud a saviour (Greek: sOtEr).
Ehud saved the Israelites, but they contributed something to their salvation from the Moabites..
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,105
30,232
113
From John 6:64 Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,855
641
113
If you notice, the ones who does what He tells them to do He calls sheep, not those who self proclaim they are saved.
They must be of His sheep in order to hear His voice.

[Jhn 10:27 KJV] 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

They must be of His sheep to believe in Him.

[Jhn 10:26 KJV] 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

IOW, to first be of His sheep is the prerequisite to everything else.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
468
83
From John 6:64 Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe.
This indicates that more than one disciple, temporarily at least, stopped believing in Jesus at different times during His ministry, and Jesus knew when that was happening. What is your point?
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
They must be of His sheep in order to hear His voice.

[Jhn 10:27 KJV] 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

They must be of His sheep to believe in Him.

[Jhn 10:26 KJV] 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

IOW, to first be of His sheep is the prerequisite to everything else.
No, if they can hear they will be doing.
I don't see many doing.
Clearly they are only hearing their own thoughts.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and does them will be like a wise man
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,855
641
113
No, if they can hear they will be doing.
I don't see many doing.
Clearly they are only hearing their own thoughts.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and does them will be like a wise man
They can't hear, or believe unless being of His sheep. That was the point of the verses I posted.
Everything else is predicated upon being of His sheep.

The hearing is spiritual hearing not human hearing. Only His sheep can spiritually hear.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
They can't hear, nor believe unless being of His sheep. That was the point of the verses I posted.
Everything else is predicated upon being of His sheep.

The hearing is spiritual hearing not human hearing. Only His sheep can spiritually hear.
Jesus said people can HEAR and reject. So get over your false doctrine.

16 “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

The one who rejects me and does not receive my words <--- you can't reject unless you can first HEAR what to reject.