Particular Redemption

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,878
5,622
113
#21
Everyone has faith - it's part of our created make-up. It's the object of that faith that will either save you or damn you.
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

A man has to hear Gods declaration to believe it

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

moses heard faith and acted upon it anyone else could have raised tbier hand and nothing would have happened because God didn’t say it to them the word is the power of faith it works through a man who accepts it
 
#22
“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭

Italics means it was added by the translators, not in the original text.
2 and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,878
5,622
113
#23
I agree that the object of saving faith is vital, we must have Jesus, but we see this;2Thess3

3 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men:
for all men have not faith.

Men have a human trust, as in you trust the pilot of the jet knows how to take off and land the jet, but that is not the supernatural saving gift of faith.
Exactly the gospel is and to these specific people and can save them

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God sent the gospel to all people those who hear and believe will be saved those who refuse to hear and believe will be damned

faith comes from hearing and believing the gospel and saves people it has to be preached and heard to have faith

“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? ( can’t believe the gospel until we hear it ) and how shall they hear without a preacher? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:14, 17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If someone wants to believe they need to look into the gospel we’re told by God to believe that gives eternal life

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

If we want to know the truth we have to listen to the truth

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we want freedom we have to acknowledge the truth

“ if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s one source of faith in the earth that is the everlasting gospel that’s saved the souls of those who hear and believe him faith only comes from Gods word
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,878
5,622
113
#24
Italics means it was added by the translators, not in the original text.
2 and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,
I see so when you read a clear scripture that corrects you then you explain the scripture is invalid
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,878
5,622
113
#25
I agree that the object of saving faith is vital, we must have Jesus, but we see this;2Thess3

3 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men:
for all men have not faith.

Men have a human trust, as in you trust the pilot of the jet knows how to take off and land the jet, but that is not the supernatural saving gift of faith.
The free gift of faith unto salvation

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

saving faith

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. …But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:23, 25‬ ‭
 
#26
I see so when you read a clear scripture that corrects you then you explain the scripture is invalid
If those words are NOT in the text, why do you say it is a "clear scripture?
Here is another clear scripture I am sure you will love;
jn3:
15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,085
3,677
113
#27
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
 
#28
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Yes exactly. He is not the Saviour of Israelites only, but of all men , Jew and gentile.
Obviously, all men who were ever born, are not going to be saved.
 

studentoftheword

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2021
1,692
589
113
#29
We believe Jesus actually saved every sinner He died for
That is False Doctrine Folks ---do not listen to that -----Jesus took all sin for all people upon Himself that is a fact but that does not save you ====we have free choice to Choose to be Saved or not to be Saved --

this is how you get saved ---there is a condition for you to be saved ---it is not automatic -----

NOTE : IF YOU and then -----Notice the Word AND--- do this ----so 2 conditions here

IF YOU do this you will be Saved -----Only IF YOU -----Condition here --------AND ---Only IF YOU ---Believe -----you will be saved -----

This word -------believe --- is not just an intellectual belief ---it is a total trust and reliance on God ----your Faith is grounded and rooted in your belief -----

Strong's Concordance
pisteuó:
I believe, have faith in, trust in, to think to be true; to credit, place confidence in; absolutely to trust in Jesus ----used emphatically, of those who acknowledge Jesus as the saviour and devote themselves to him

if you do not Confess your Faith with your mouth that Jesus is LORD and Believe in your Heart that Jesus was Raised from the Dead ---YOU WILL NOT AND ARE NOT SAVED ----even though HE Took your Sins upon Him ---

Romans 10 ----

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Romans 10:10 In-Context

10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
 
#30
That is False Doctrine Folks ---do not listen to that -----Jesus took all sin for all people upon Himself that is a fact but that does not save you ====we have free choice to Choose to be Saved or not to be Saved --

this is how you get saved ---there is a condition for you to be saved ---it is not automatic -----

NOTE : IF YOU and then -----Notice the Word AND--- do this ----so 2 conditions here

IF YOU do this you will be Saved -----Only IF YOU -----Condition here --------AND ---Only IF YOU ---Believe -----you will be saved -----

This word -------believe --- is not just an intellectual belief ---it is a total trust and reliance on God ----your Faith is grounded and rooted in your belief -----

Strong's Concordance
pisteuó:
I believe, have faith in, trust in, to think to be true; to credit, place confidence in; absolutely to trust in Jesus ----used emphatically, of those who acknowledge Jesus as the saviour and devote themselves to him

if you do not Confess your Faith with your mouth that Jesus is LORD and Believe in your Heart that Jesus was Raised from the Dead ---YOU WILL NOT AND ARE NOT SAVED ----even though HE Took your Sins upon Him ---

Romans 10 ----

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Romans 10:10 In-Context

10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
Here we have an example of this mistaken poster suggesting salvation is dependent upon our works, rather than the grace of God.

He denies that Jesus actually saved every sinner He died to save.
His man centered ideas attempt to suggest that salvation is not of the lord, but rather of man.

he says it plain as day!
NOTE : IF YOU and then -----Notice the Word AND--- do this ----so 2 conditions here

IF YOU do this you will be Saved
he has the idol of "free will" that he inserts;
we have free choice to Choose to be Saved or not to be Saved --
This is a complete denial of the fall into sin and death.
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
113
#31
Hello Selah, This verse is talking about the will of God, not the will of man.
Man has a will, but it is not free. It is bound by his sin nature.
You have no verse or verses saying man has free will.
Free will is a philosophical term that was man made, not a biblical term.
men are called upon to choose things, but they can only choose by their own nature which is bound.
No free will then?
….but what about about this one?
"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

- Revelation 3:20
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,382
432
83
#32
The Spurgeon Library | Particular Redemption

The doctrine of Redemption is one of the most important doctrines of the system of faith. A mistake on this point will inevitably lead to a mistake through the entire system of our belief.

Now, you are aware that there are different theories of Redemption. All Christians hold that Christ died to redeem, but all Christians do not teach the same redemption. We differ as to the nature of atonement, and as to the design of redemption.

For instance, the Arminian holds that Christ, when He died, did not die with an intent to save any particular person; and they teach that Christ's death does not in itself secure, beyond doubt, the salvation of any one man living. They believe that Christ died to make the salvation of all men possible, or that by the doing of something else, any man who pleases may attain unto eternal life; consequently, they are obliged to hold that if man's will would not give way and voluntarily surrender to grace, then Christ's atonement would be unavailing. They hold that there was no particularity and speciality in the death of Christ. Christ died, according to them, as much for Judas in Hell as for Peter who mounted to Heaven. They believe that for those who are consigned to eternal fire, there was a true and real a redemption made as for those who now stand before the throne of the Most High.

Now, we believe no such thing. We hold that Christ, when He died, had an object in view, and that object will most assuredly, and beyond a doubt, be accomplished. We measure the design of Christ's death by the effect of it. If any one asks us, "What did Christ design to do by His death?" we answer that question by asking him another—"What has Christ done, or what will Christ do by His death?"


II. Now, secondly, we must measure the great redemption BY THE STERNNESS OF DIVINE JUSTICE. "God is love," always loving; but my next proposition does not at all interfere with this assertion. God is sternly just, inflexibly severe in His dealings with mankind. The God of the Bible is not the God of some men's imagination, Who thinks so little of sin that He passes it by without demanding any punishment for it. He is not the God of the men who imagine that our transgressions are such little things, such mere peccadilloes that the God of Heaven winks at them, and suffers them to die forgotten. No; Jehovah, Israel's God, hath declared concerning Himself, "The Lord thy God is a jealous God." It is His own declaration, "I will by no means clear the guilty." "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Learn ye, my friends, to look upon God as being as severe in His justice as if He were not loving, and yet as loving as if He were not severe.

His love does not diminish His justice, nor does His justice, in the least degree, make warfare upon His love. The two things are sweetly linked together in the atonement of Christ.
Jesus went willingly once for everyone to be reconciled (Forgiven) as done once for all, in his last shedding of blood. No more sacrifice left to do, it is done (John19:30) Sin taken away (John 1:29). Jesus, Separated Sin from death is what Jesus did on that cross, once for everyone to now either turn to his Father and believe All sin is now taken away for us people or not (2 Cor 5:17-20) That, it is finished for us to now go to Father in God's throne of grace and have a talk, about this, what is done for us in Son! Amazing grace, wow!!!!!!!
Hebrews 10, is clear on that subject to me, seeing by Son I am forgiven and not atoned for anymore, taken away for me to be given new life in the resurrected Christ, only concerned in love to all in the same mercy and truth given me by Son for me and the entire world of people, at that cross.
The reconciliation, had to take place first, before any new life could ever be given to anyone of flesh and blood, and be born again as new in Spirit and Truth of God alone.
therefore accept, it is finished by God Son, Jesus for us, as if never sinned (Col 1:1-23) Ask for the new life from Father and be given it, unless you or anyone else asks amiss. And only wishes it to spend it on their own pleasures, these do not get what asked for, when one is not asking seriously in trust to God, whom loves us all.
otherwise that cross would not have ever happened

What I am saying is:
Romans 3:26 Living Bible
And now in these days also he can receive sinners in this same way because Jesus took away their sins. But isn’t this unfair for God to let criminals go free, and say that they are innocent? No, for he does it on the basis of their trust in Jesus who took away their sins.

Romans 3:26

Authorized (King James) Version

26 to declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Ephesians 1:7 Living Bible
So overflowing is his kindness toward us that he tookaway all our sins through the blood of his Son, by whom we are saved;

Ephesians 1:7

Authorized (King James) Version

7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Colossians 2:15 Living Bible
In this way God took away Satan’s power to accuse you of sin, and God openly displayed to the whole world Christ’s triumph at the cross where your sins were all taken away.

Colossians 2:15

Authorized (King James) Version

15 and having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Matthew 5:17

Living Bible

17 “Don’t misunderstand why I have come—it isn’t to cancel the laws of Moses and the warnings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them and to make them all come true.

John 19:30

Living Bible

30 When Jesus had tasted[a] it, he said, “It is finished,” and bowed his head and dismissed his spirit.

Hebrews 9:14-17

Living Bible

14 just think how much more surely the blood of Christ will transform our lives and hearts. His sacrifice frees us from the worry of having to obey the old rules and makes us want to serve the living God. For by the help of the eternal Holy Spirit, Christ willingly gave himself to God to die for our sins—he being perfect, without a single sin or fault.15 Christ came with this new agreement so that all who are invited may come and have forever all the wonders God has promised them. For Christ died to rescue them from the penalty of the sins they had committed while still under that old system.
16 Now, if someone dies and leaves a will—a list of things to be given away to certain people when he dies—no one gets anything until it is proved that the person who wrote the will is dead. 17 The will goes into effect only after the death of the person who wrote it. While he is still alive no one can use it to get any of those things he has promised them.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,085
3,677
113
#33
Yes exactly. He is not the Saviour of Israelites only, but of all men , Jew and gentile.
Obviously, all men who were ever born, are not going to be saved.
All men are capable of being saved because his blood was shed for all men. But only those who believe will be saved.

Have you believed the gospel? Chosen or forced is not believing. If Christ chose you to believe, then it was not you believing the gospel.
 

studentoftheword

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2021
1,692
589
113
#34
We believe Jesus actually saved every sinner He died for
That is False Doctrine Folks ---do not listen to that -----Jesus took all sin for all people upon Himself that is a fact but that does not save you ====we have free choice to Choose to be Saved or not to be Saved --

this is how you get saved ---there is a condition for you to be saved ---it is not automatic -----

NOTE : IF YOU and then -----Notice the Word AND--- do this ----so 2 conditions here

IF YOU do this you will be Saved -----Only IF YOU -----Condition here --------AND ---if you Believe -----you will be saved -----

This word -------believe --- is not just an intellectual belief ---it is a total trust and reliance on God ----your Faith is grounded and rooted in your belief -----

Strong's Concordance
pisteuó:
I believe, have faith in, trust in, to think to be true; to credit, place confidence in; absolutely to trust in Jesus ----used emphatically, of those who acknowledge Jesus as the saviour and devote themselves to him

if you do not Confess your Faith with your mouth that Jesus is LORD and Believe in your Heart that Jesus was Raised from the Dead ---YOU WILL NOT AND ARE NOT SAVED ----even though HE Took your Sins upon Him ---

Romans 10 ----

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Romans 10:10 In-Context

10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

This is a complete denial of the fall into sin and death.
Your the on that is in denial ---and your the one that is NOT Saved IF YOU DID NOT DO AS THE SCRIPTURE Says to be Saved --

YOU will experience the SECOND DEATH ====Spiritual DEATH ------



And Reside in The Lake of Fire ----

1719257604826.jpeg

And that my firend is the Real -----


1719257703157.jpeg
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,085
3,677
113
#35
ABC's of salvaton:

Admit that you are a sinner and uncapable of saving yourself from your sins.
Believe that Christ died for your sins, was buried, and rose again.
Call upon the name of the Lord for salvation.
 
#36
No free will then?
….but what about about this one?
"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

- Revelation 3:20
This is not a salvation context is it Selah? It is written to a church in which Jesus is finding fault with them.
 

studentoftheword

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2021
1,692
589
113
#37
Don't play Russian Roulette Folks with your Salvation ----Jesus who is the Word is telling you how to get Saved ---listen to Jesus who is the Word -----and follow His Way ---

Not the way of Iconoclast which says I con -----like con---text-----take the TEXT out of CONtext and your left with a CON -----so take the OCLAST out of this user name and your left with I-CON -----
Satan is in the House here ---deceiving you all
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
113
#38
This is not a salvation context is it Selah? It is written to a church in which Jesus is finding fault with them.
It seems to me that the writing is clearly intended to be salvific. The writing is personalized and offered as an invitation. Christ will tenderly enter in if anyone opens the door of their heart to Him.
"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

- Revelation 3:20
 

Burn1986

Active member
Mar 4, 2024
918
212
43
#39
The Spurgeon Library | Particular Redemption

The doctrine of Redemption is one of the most important doctrines of the system of faith. A mistake on this point will inevitably lead to a mistake through the entire system of our belief.

Now, you are aware that there are different theories of Redemption. All Christians hold that Christ died to redeem, but all Christians do not teach the same redemption. We differ as to the nature of atonement, and as to the design of redemption.

For instance, the Arminian holds that Christ, when He died, did not die with an intent to save any particular person; and they teach that Christ's death does not in itself secure, beyond doubt, the salvation of any one man living. They believe that Christ died to make the salvation of all men possible, or that by the doing of something else, any man who pleases may attain unto eternal life; consequently, they are obliged to hold that if man's will would not give way and voluntarily surrender to grace, then Christ's atonement would be unavailing. They hold that there was no particularity and speciality in the death of Christ. Christ died, according to them, as much for Judas in Hell as for Peter who mounted to Heaven. They believe that for those who are consigned to eternal fire, there was a true and real a redemption made as for those who now stand before the throne of the Most High.

Now, we believe no such thing. We hold that Christ, when He died, had an object in view, and that object will most assuredly, and beyond a doubt, be accomplished. We measure the design of Christ's death by the effect of it. If any one asks us, "What did Christ design to do by His death?" we answer that question by asking him another—"What has Christ done, or what will Christ do by His death?"


II. Now, secondly, we must measure the great redemption BY THE STERNNESS OF DIVINE JUSTICE. "God is love," always loving; but my next proposition does not at all interfere with this assertion. God is sternly just, inflexibly severe in His dealings with mankind. The God of the Bible is not the God of some men's imagination, Who thinks so little of sin that He passes it by without demanding any punishment for it. He is not the God of the men who imagine that our transgressions are such little things, such mere peccadilloes that the God of Heaven winks at them, and suffers them to die forgotten. No; Jehovah, Israel's God, hath declared concerning Himself, "The Lord thy God is a jealous God." It is His own declaration, "I will by no means clear the guilty." "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Learn ye, my friends, to look upon God as being as severe in His justice as if He were not loving, and yet as loving as if He were not severe.

His love does not diminish His justice, nor does His justice, in the least degree, make warfare upon His love. The two things are sweetly linked together in the atonement of Christ.
Yawn.
 
#40
All men are capable of being saved because his blood was shed for all men.
I would say it this way. All men are capable of being saved, from our point of view, because God saves sinners.
We all sinned and died in Adam. Although God has elected a multitude to be saved, we do not know who they are, so we offer the gospel to all men. It is not because it has not been determined by God, and it is a free for all. But rather we are not given the identity of these people, but we know the gospel is to go worldwide.

But only those who believe will be saved.
Yes,,,that is why it is called believers baptism. Salvation is for believers, not the reprobate.

Have you believed the gospel?
This is the question that each person has to come to grips with.
Chosen or forced is not believing.
No...it comes down to being brought from darkness to life, from death to life.

If Christ chose you to believe, then it was not you believing the gospel.
God has elected those who believe, before the world was. That being said, in time the Spirit gives them a new heart, a supernatural work that enables them to repent and believe the gospel.