Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

More claims, but no examples. Facts persuade, not assertions. The biblical meaning of will, thelEma is desire. I am not interested in reinterpreting the Bible using your oe=wn personal meanings for words the Bible uses,

Who has ever said, "God would be violating the sanctity and integrity of a person's free moral agency if He ever sovereignly moved against that moral agency"?

Thank You!
Thank You!
Curious to know what sort of answers you perceived from others to conclude they are claiming a works base for salvation?
Are they saying do good thing during the act of being saved or giving money or something I am just missing?

However, the following statement is not warranted!

Click to expand...

I guess you have never met, well now "a couple" are my friends, but when I first met them hahahahaha good ole boys from the South USA who are typically Southern Baptist. It's a warzone down there.

I was evangelizing in my early days and preaching on [speaking in tongues] and some of them attended the service. While I was teaching some of them stood up yelling you're going to Hell. They ought to run your Jew azz out of here teaching modern day Gifts. You've been replaced. Early 1990s and these boys were planning on getting rid of me.

And some here the moment we first began talking/debating flat out called me stupid, ignorant, clueless. No doubt they would have done something had they been able to.

And maybe you are not part of that type of thinking. But it is alive and well still today. You just need to be at the right places.

And the LORD could have done it any time He wanted to but the rebellion made Him do it the way we know how it did happen.

There's only 1 Doctrine. It's not your precious 5 Graces either. It's Jesus Christ DBR!

But people like you turn everything into a doctrine and this was what Paul was saying. He didn't do things to certain people because they make everything into an IDOL!

The Bible and Holy Words within it paint us the whole picture if we examine it correctly. Like the 4 Gospels. Matthew might comment here, Mark a little more, Luke even deeper, and John might touch about how those around acted and reacted. But when you put all of those verses together it shows us a truly clear dynamic.

Best example is the Tomb of Jesus scene. One Gospel says these people showed up, another mentions more names, and 3rd mentions more of the conversation they had with the Angels. So you really get a better sense of who really was there and what was being said.

It's the same in our lives. There's your version of the events of your life and the version of those who were there at time certain times and how they saw it.

But you are not mincing words so it's rather clear here when you present Job and being sifted that you experienced something great enough to embark a milestone marker. Something that you are able to look back upon and gain strength, knowledge, and most definitely wisdom. And your desire for peace and unity is a reference to keep others from having to go through what you did. You're literally telling everyone, you who are struggling in this issue, if there's peace enough to talk, You have some advice should they be willing to hear could lead them out of some trouble of their own.

I can sense you are even in the frame of mind this is urgent. Someone you believe could benefit should they just hear you out. But sadly, you're speaking from the heart to people who themselves are coming in thinking they are full of truth wanting to jam that truth down everyone else's throats. Wanting to push their doctrine as if God personally gave them a revelation no one else knows about.

I truly feel for you. It must be bigger than the Great Wall of China or Jericho you are facing here with some of these people.
For you to use this verse absolutely speaks volumes to your point of view when looking at this discussion from everyone as a whole.

That's a very powerful verse. Definitely infringes upon Loving our Neighbor as we love ourselves. Directly goes against the 2nd Commandment of Jesus.
All excellent points made. Technically speaking here, we are allowed to Rebuke False Doctrine or Misrepresenting of singling out specific Verses out of context but in doing so it should be done in a constructive, educational type of way. Not a way to get a few personal jabs in because people do not believe the same and irritates some.
Amen!
I have always wondered about how on Earth are we going to survive Eternity in Heaven together when we cannot stand one another right now and generally it all boils down to Doctrine. So my goal was to focus on the only true Doctrine which is Jesus Christ DBR. When [we] just focus on Jesus, His Life, Death, Burial, Resurrection, Ascension, now KING of kings and LORD of lords we get away from personal beliefs and focus solely upon what the Bible claims.

I have been in Churches that made comments from the Pulpit [when the DEAD in Christ rise up first (which are the Methodist-Presbyterians-Baptist-Wesleyan-blah blah blah blah blah baloney)...and then WE which are ALIVE.......:...you have already set a precedent People of God that do not believe as you do are the ENEMY.

No, They are FAMILY and should be viewed and treated as such!
We [ALL] need to be having this kind of talk. We are on the cusp of Tribulation taking place, Israel is literally weeks away from rebuilding their 3rd Temple and about to enter the Ezekiel 38-39 War that will lead to a Peace Treaty (no doubt 7 year one), Israel has 3 confirmed Red Heifers to sacrifice and use the ashes to anoint the Temple Grounds and the newly elected High Priest, and in this Thread we're too focused on how did you get Saved because if it's now how I got saved then you are LOST.

And even if you present Scripture they will rebut by presenting Doctrine. So it becomes evidently clear that just as Jesus preached against [Man Made Doctrine] that it has become the snare to trap people once again.

We are starving for Real Talk and too blind, too death, lost all of 5 senses to even understand this. So many people are going to be "blind-sided" when what is coming hits the fan. They won't see it and won't know what to do when they're knee deep in it.
I believe the feeling of Respect goes both ways here between us. And I am looking forward to continue and understanding more of your insight you have gained from God. Your usage of Scripture has been spot on to the Discernment that you can feel around you and here on this platform. You have much to offer and I am eager to read about it because it shows me how God is dealing with you right now.

When People are hungry for God, on fire for God, understanding the playing field all around them, they are being used by God and others can glean from it. And your sense of urgency is for peace and unity. That generally means the Great Falling Away is near [as it has been but even more so now] and actually shows who is trustworthy in God knowing what we're about to be facing sooner than we realize. You are trying to build a nucleus. In the times to come, it's the lone wolves who will be caught first. The ones who think they have it all figured out and too smart to trip over their own 2 feet.

Whether right or wrong in interpreting, we should all be asking one another to explain these verse references that we post like this one you're referring to.

From what I'm seeing, most cannot explain Scripture in context. If asked to do so, or if presented with some interpretive work that provides a case against their interpretation, the strategy is clearly to ignore it, to claim without explanation that it is wrong, to present some systematic theology or some long and tedious narrative or analogy, to get into some pejorative language, and to continue to assert their unproven interpretation.

Your opening exclamation is well appreciated. This currently ingrained proof-texting process is a joke. Any opinion can be stated and any verse reference can be used to back it up. It's all nonsense and disrespectful to The Word, the Spirit, our mutual Faith, and to one another.

I take issue even when someone says we must believe to receive God's salvation. I think they have it backwards. Yes, you must hear and believe - but the believing part comes when your heart is changed. That may be a minor point to others, however, to me it saying we worked with God to obtain salvation!
Sorry that you went through such an experience. Everyone meets up with folks like this from time to time. But what does that have to do with those who have reformed views! Many people on this site have reformed views, but I do not think they would ever think of killing the N/R. I am able to disagree with someone and still go to sleep each night in peace..........

True indeed!

1 Cor 1:18 and 1 Cor 2:14-16 being two examples wretched from their surrounding text and then interpreted incorrectly.

@FollowerofShiloh—I tried to send you this message below privately because I know what Satan's minions will do to it and perhaps me. However, a subscription is required, so I will paste what I have quickly written this morning. Please pardon my mistakes and errors, as I do not have the time to proofread and correct. I hope that these words are not abysmal, as they certainly might be.

Where do I begin?

First, I have actually copied this interaction, pasted it into "Word" and have saved it as its own file. This is the single most significant exchange I have ever had with another human being (that I wrote human being is significant). Why? Because you are proving that you have been given an insight to not only read my physical, or shall I say readable words, but you have been given the rare gift of seeing through them, and actually grasping my very heart. If God gave you more ability, you might actually feel my heartbeat.

This exchange between us is monumental, for we are demonstrating a literal example of the exchange that God wants us to have with each other, and this is what we were/are supposed to glean from the Book of Job. Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar were supposed to look beyond his disease and boils . . . to "feel" and know his heart. But these three men did not do that, but rather, they saw his sickness and unimaginable losses and concluded that there was something wrong with him, that the things taking place in his life were his responsibility because of something egregious he must have done. What did he do? Did he rape a woman all night until she died? (Jdgs Chapter 19). Did he sacrifice children to the false gods of Chemosh and Molech as did some of the [blinded] yet Blessed Jews? Did he kill, cook, eat, and hide the remainder of his child's flesh from the rest of his family, only to consume it later (for self-preservation)? No, Job was truly innocent. There was nothing wrong with him.

I'm sitting here shaking my head over your wisdom to perceive me in the way that you are. Here is further detail that I am 100% certain that you will understand (for you have been set apart - and long before I came along, btw):

I have felt the Terror of the Lord, rather, I should say that I have been gifted to experience this Holy Terror. But let me digress very quickly. You are wise in recognizing that at age twelve, something significant happened in my life, and this event was the beginning of remarkable sifting, which the Lord has wonderfully allowed. To be blunt, I was sexually assaulted by my Boy Scout leader twice. The second time I believe that I would be raped, murdered, and buried in the snow upon a prominent Washington State mountain. This human terror is the most significant terror I have ever known. That said, I have also the fear that my own father was about to kill me some 8 years later. What people do not understand is that these moments are gifts to be used as we apply them to Scripture. Without these forms of suffering, reading the Bible is much like a fairy tale. But when a person experiences the Terror of the Lord, this is an entirely new level and form of Terror. Human terror is a picnic to Spiritual Terror. Human terror is like a mere game to Spiritual Terror. Why? Because it is the experience equated to having a foot in hell . . . a REAL Spiritual place.

When a "christian" (notice the lowercase "c") experiences Spiritual Terror, they are then compelled to use their memory of perhaps some stories in the Old Testament, thus they turn to these pages to perhaps relate. After having experienced this Terror, and when they read of such Old Testament stories, these stories instantly become real. These stories can no longer be passed and forgotten within minutes of having read them. Impossible. We read of them and we might say to ourselves, "My awesome God . . . you are so incredible! That you can take an entire Philistine Army, and cause them to turn upon each other. You know which hearts to reach; you know which minds to take hold of and cause to think and act in the manner in which you have Planned."

To experience God in a Spiritual way is to have and begin a life that has changed and will continue to be Transformed until death. While I was experiencing this Terror, I knew that my human flesh couldn't endure it much longer before I simply had a heart attack and died . . . this was certain; it was inevitable. After about three minutes of experiencing Satan's Spiritual Beings seeming to grasp at me, wanting me to die so they could do whatever to me, I knew that I had to call out to the God I have always known from before I left my mothers womb (I was simply in church while she was pregnant), and it was in this moment that I was actually "saved." Prior to this experience, my life proved that I did not actually believe. Oh, I sure thought that I did! But after having experienced the Lord's horrific yet beautiful Terror, only to be subsequently Saved by the Holy Spirit and Circumcised by Christ, it was then that I was finally gifted the ability to actually Repent; something I thought I understood, but was terribly misguided. After these experiences, it was only then that Repentance was possible, for as the decades of my life progressed, I was only becoming worse and worse in my behaviors.

Did I believe in the stories of the Bible, such as Jesus walking on water? Yes, I did . . . about 99.9%. But there was always that .1% that did not believe. The problem is that my .1% of disbelief rendered me an unbeliever. This .1% was equivalent to a hardened stone within my heart, and that meant that it was not Pure. Yes, in all of my sin, I still called out to God daily. I always claimed that I loved Him. I would weep like a child and beg of Him to remove my uncontrollable need to "feel better" through alcohol and sexual relationships (multiple women per week) . . . His Plan for me, this plan of suffering still had years to come before I would be given relief, and I thank God for that! It wasn't until I experienced this Holy Terror, followed by an even more Powerful experience with the Lord (so Powerful that in His presence much longer and my flesh would have been altered somehow), this is when that .1% of stone was cut out and replaced with a tender, responsive, heart of flesh.

It became evident that I had never truly believed, though I was certain that my 99.9% was enough. Having experienced both the Terror of the Lord and the Indwelling Holy Spirit, I realized that I needed to set all previous "knowledge" aside and re-read the Bible in a timeline, chronological order so that I could, for the first time, learn about who my God really is. Now with the understanding that our Bible is a record of actual history and that He is Powerful enough to keep His written Word Pure enough for us to understand and come to know who He is, that is what I did. I began studying the Bible in an entirely new way . . . with a renewed heart. Finally I believed! How could I not? It is impossible not to believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob when you have experienced Him. And so, when I began to read Chapters like John 9, one of the five most important Chapters in the Bible, I could finally understand. The physical healings of Christ were all pointing to something greater, the healing of hearts . . . Redemption.

John 9:39-41 NLT - "Then Jesus told him, "I entered this world to render judgment--to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind." 40 Some Pharisees who were standing nearby heard him and asked, "Are you saying we're blind?" 41 "If you were blind, you wouldn't be guilty," Jesus replied. "But you remain guilty because you claim you can see."

@FollowerofShiloh

I was the Spiritually blind who claimed that I could see . . . but because of my Spiritual blindness, it was impossible for me to recognize that I was blind, or shall we say, in a "deep, deep sleep." I didn't know! I had no clue! I thought that I WAS awake! No one could convince me otherwise . . . it was utterly impossible! And so when I first discovered Colossians 2:11-13, this is when I realized what happened to me:

Colossians 2:11-13 NLT - "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

Later, as the Spirit continued to teach me, I came to recognize that Col 2-9-15 is the heart of the Bible . . . it literally revolves around these seven most unbelievable passages. Incredibly, when I post these Scriptures to this day, they mean nothing to said "Christians." And my heart aches, for these SEVEN incredible verses meant nothing to them, just as they meant nothing to me. In fact, I don't ever recall reading them in the first 49 years of my life, and it is because of Spiritual blindness. I came to understand that Spiritual blindness is so real, it doesn't matter how I try to explain these things to people, they laugh it off and scoff at me. Yes, a Baptist preacher did just that in my own home (as he was visiting me for the first time after attending his church - mind you, he never visited me again). Even pastors, preachers, and teachers are unable to grasp this unbelievable Book, for they cannot do so until they have received the Work of Christ as mentioned in John 9:39-41 above.

Now, as usual, there will likely be people who will scoff at what I have written above. I assume that I have many of them on Ignore, thus I won't see their disgusting remarks, but you, @FollowerofShiloh - you have been given the gift to see beyond the mere words of not just myself, but so much more . . . the Bible. You are able to see that the things of this world, and even the stories of the Bible, are a pattern of something greater. You understand that we cannot simply read the Word of God and can thus know His truth, no . . . we must read the Word of God and recognize that we are reading of something greater than what the mere Words (though they are Righteous, Holy and Pure) have to offer. Our Scriptures are always pointing to something greater than what they seem to present themselves as being. When we experience God in a Powerful way, we will understand that we must look beyond the words and begin the process, the TRUE process of asking, seeking, and knocking, and these acts never stop. We do not walk to the Door of God and knock a few times, only to wait a few seconds and say, "Whew. Ok, He didn't answer, I'm outa here!" No, we never leave that Door. We never stop asking, seeking, and knocking (so to speak). Our pursuit of God does not end until our physical bodies have failed us, be it our heart or the brain no longer functions as it once did.

My words to you are humble. I do not want attention. I don't want to be recognized for anything other than being a mere servant, one used by God should I be so fortunate, if even to only suffer. I write these words in hopes that I might pierce your heart, to continue to look at our Bible as the hidden, Mysterious Plan that Paul urged us to research and understand. And though he speaks of the Eternal Plan of God, in reality, he only gave us small bits and pieces, for this Plan is still hidden today . . . and that is an absolute miracle! The fact that God can determine what we know and understand, so as to fulfill His Plan for each of us with the intent of Bring Glory to Himself by the Transformed Lives of those who belong to Him . . . it is staggering.

1 Corinthians 2:7-10 NLT - 7 No, the wisdom we speak of is the mystery of God--his plan that was previously hidden, even though he made it for our ultimate glory before the world began. 8 But the rulers of this world have not understood it; if they had, they would not have crucified our glorious Lord. 9 That is what the Scriptures mean when they say, "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love him." 10 But it was to us that God revealed these things by his Spirit. For his Spirit searches out everything and shows us God's deep secrets.

All throughout the Bible we see God's control over when and what we think, believe, and even do. These stories of His Power and control are all throughout Scripture, and primarily the Old Testament. Of course, I couldn't see this because I had not experienced the Lord as the hand experiences the reality of fire. When that hand is burnt, it has learned the reality of fire . . . and they instantly change, for the choice has been made to never place our hands in fire again (for the typical human).

I fear that I have written to much. I fear that my human words will have turned you away, to be critical and unyielding. I hope that this has not happened, and if so, I beg of you to forgive me. I write what I have written in hopes that they might inspire to keep going down this path of gentleness and kindness to one another. For when the reality of the Father, Son, and Spirit take ownership of a heart, we will find that we are being Transformed, and this, as you know, is necessary for Salvation. We MUST be Transformed into a person who Loves all people. All people, even our enemies.

Yes! promises! No one can be promised what they already have, and so promises, inherently, require believing in them. Faith that He Who promised is able to materialize them!

Yes, I'm well aware of what "Christian" Forums allow. It's the sign of the times with many of these forums, that generally hold the objective Truth Claims of Christian Faith in low regard. Trinity? Hah. No big deal. Incarnation? No biggie either. Christ is a lesser god that's all. The Impeccability of Christ? Why even go there, etc. The Fall of Man? Don't be ridiculous. Just an allegory.

But here's a bit of dogma for you: "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him as righteousness" (Rom 4:3). I strongly suspect that hell will literally be loaded with people who believed in God like the demons do.

Paul said in Acts 17:
26 From one He made every nation of men to live on the face of the earth...
27 They were to search for Him....Yet He is not far from each one of us
28 for ‘In Him we live and move and have our being.’ ‘For we also are His offspring.’
29 Since we are His offspring

Paul said we were created in such a way, that as God's Own Offspring, we can search for Him and find Him.

Whether we do it or not Paul shows us we [can do it].

So I would only point out that while it is God who comes to us all, we have the "Wedding Ceremony Parable" + "Sower of the Seed Parable" that shows Everyone can "hear the invitation" and everyone can "accept or reject" it. That is 100% BIBLE!!!

But what any of us are doing in the process of Regeneration is merely submitting.
We hear the Gospel.
We understand we need Jesus [which is Faith to Believe]
We are filled with the Holy Spirit.

EVERY VERSE describing how people got saved was always Hearing-Believing-Filled with Holy Spirit.

How can it be any other way when we have so many verses saying the same thing?

It would impossible any other way.

The Bible is what we [ALWAYS] go by.

But I say still in all of those examples and verses it is still God doing it ALL. We just are allowing. Which is the opposite of what many do by rejecting it or not allowing it to happen.
Brother, they were Southern Baptist, Reformed.
They were Cessationist so they called me a liar about Speaking in Tongues even though John Calvin [Reformer] wrote he spoke in Tongues 400 years ago.
They believed they had replaced the Jews [Replacement Theology].
They were attacking me personally on Belief and Ethnicity.

I am not sorry they did it. I needed to know. God led me right into the pits of Hell and walked me right out of it with knowledge to understand something I was unaware of.

I should have just said [some] Reformers and I apologize for that.
But I am thankful that God placed me in the middle of that so I would Trust Him within that whole situation.

We pray because it's commanded of us AND it's a means of Grace. You NR folks just don't get it: God ordains the ends and well as the means to those ends.

No, Paul did not say "we CAN search and find." You're reading that into the text. And you did a nifty editing job on v.27, as well! The versed reads:

Acts 17:27
27 God did this so that men WOULD seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.
NIV

There's a difference between "could" and "would", for your info.

Says the same thing.
WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO IT!!

No, the rebellion didn't MAKE or FORCE him to do anything! "He wanted to but..."! You have a pretty low view of the Creator and Redeemer who Jesus claimed that nothing is impossible for Him to do! God never said in Exodus 3 that Moses would lead the people into the Land. God said, he would, and so he did. He led the 2nd generation of Israelities that were in Egypt into the land through Joshua. God kept his promise.

How many times did Moses address the People about their ways?
He was instructed by God to do as such.
You don't have any grasp of the reality of Scripture what so ever.
You make the Bible match your false idealism.
Do you even know what Sovereignty means?

42 Go not up, for the LORD is not among you; that ye be not smitten down before your enemies.

43 For there the Amalekite and the Canaanite are before you, and ye shall fall by the sword; forasmuch as ye are turned back from following the LORD, and the LORD will not be with you.'

^
Moses tells them they REJECTED GOD!
That is why they were not allowed to enter the Promised Land!

And in Rebellion they even tried to enter the Promised Land on their own ability and were SLAUGHTERED for God was no longer with them.

I will help YOU!


THE SOVEREIGNTY of GOD
The word “sovereign” """is not used""" in any Version of the Bible


It means YOU and OTHERS who make False Doctrines use a WORD not literally found in the BIBLE.

The Ancient Hebrews used a form of the word but not the same meaning as the Reformed use it and 303 times it is known as the LORD GOD.

So stop giving this sovereignty baloney that God Himself NEVER USED!!