Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Psa 14:1
The fool ***hath said in his heart***, (a free will act of rebellion) (There is) ***no God***. They (the fool) are corrupt, they (the fool) have done abominable works, there is none (of these fools) that doeth good.
Psa 14:2
The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any (of these fools) that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3
They (the fools) are all gone aside, they (the fools) are all together become filthy: there is none (of these fools) that doeth good, no, not one.

Paul quoting Ps 14 and Ps 53:
Rom 3:10
As it is written, There is none (of these fools) righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11
There is none (of these fools) that understandeth, there is none (of these fools) that seeketh after God.

==============================================================================================================

Fortunately for them, Adam, Noah, David and Paul were NOT fools.

And no, the Pharisees were NOT commanded by God to kill Jesus. Nor did God command Satan to do ANYTHING that He did during passion week. All parties were free will agents. And the whenever the Pharisees were speaking lies about Jesus-God, they were speaking of THEIR own and were the father of their own lies.

Jhn 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
"Satan to do ANYTHING that ***he*** (little h) did"
 

HeIsHere

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May 21, 2022
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Psa 14:1
The fool ***hath said in his heart***, (a free will act of rebellion) (There is) ***no God***. They (the fool) are corrupt, they (the fool) have done abominable works, there is none (of these fools) that doeth good.
Psa 14:2
The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any (of these fools) that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3
They (the fools) are all gone aside, they (the fools) are all together become filthy: there is none (of these fools) that doeth good, no, not one.

Paul quoting Ps 14 and Ps 53:
Rom 3:10
As it is written, There is none (of these fools) righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11
There is none (of these fools) that understandeth, there is none (of these fools) that seeketh after God.

==============================================================================================================

Fortunately for them, Adam, Noah, David and Paul were NOT fools.

And no, the Pharisees were NOT commanded by God to kill Jesus. Nor did God command Satan to do ANYTHING that He did during passion week. All parties were free will agents. And the whenever the Pharisees were speaking lies about Jesus-God, they were speaking of THEIR own and were the father of their own lies.

Jhn 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
The Bible is filled with free responses, the point is not to take one situation or statement like "no one seeks God" and make into blanket statement for all people, in all places, for all time, the scripture needs to be rightly divided.

That is the real pitfall of determinism/calvinism, it is in the end utterly simplistic.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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Calm down, already. You're going to have a stroke. :rolleyes:

Neither is Trinity or Incarnation found in scriprture. So you don't believe in these two doctrines? But every single team of original language scholars has inserted the term "Sovereign" (usually in caps) and used as an adjective to mean "superlative in quality", "excellent", "of the the most exalted kind". The NIV alone employs the term in the OT 303 times. From the definitions I just provided, are you going to deny that the concept of "sovereign" is not found in scripture?

But I'm not surprised that you object so vehemently and strenuously against the doctrine of the Sovereignty of God. It's typical of the NR to diminish the high and lofty and exalted status of God and instead assign it to man -- most especially to man's will and his worldly idea of what freedom is. This isn't the first time I've heard this kind of objection. Skeptics, atheists, pantheists, and others also hate the concept. It's amazing how much you NR have in common with the with these kinds of dead people.
Okay. I don't need to believe in trinity, which concept is fluid and has a variety of conflicting configurations. I do believe that Jesus is God; the Father is God. God is the Father of all living. The Holy Spirit is God. And there is only one God. The Bible days those things about the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and God.

I do not need to believe in the incarnation, but I do believe that Jesus was an ever-existing person who was, is and will always be God, who becane the human being named Jesus of Nazareth. The Bible says those things about Jesus.

I do not believe that God has foreordained all the details of reality and history from before anything came into being, because the Bible doesn't say that He did.
 

cv5

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Demons have of their own free will possessed men, then of their own free will choose to enter swine. God says "OK" (KNOWING FULL WELL WHAT IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN!). Pigs commit sue-cide and these demons are cast into the abyss anyways!

Who wins in this encounter? God. Who has free will? Everybody. INCLUDING THE SWINE!

Mat 8:28
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
Mat 8:29
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Mat 8:30
And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
Mat 8:31
So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
Mat 8:32
And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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Fortunately for them, Adam, Noah, David and Paul were NOT fools.

Precisely!

Context is really a problem for those driving an erroneous presupposition.

Nice work on the context - both textual and historical.


Although Paul is using Psalm 14 and or Psalm 53 to draw from and he certainly does seem to be making a universal statement, is his point that both Jews and Gentiles (universal) sin (3:9), or that no man ever (universal & timeless) seeks God?

If we look at Psalm 14 it's in the context of the fool. And David, a man of God, is writing and in 14:4 speaks of God's people. So, there is a distinction being made between the fool and God's people. The fool seems to be the one who does not seek God.

At times the Text speaks of the fools in Israel - NKJ 2 Sam. 13:13 "And I, where could I take my shame? And as for you, you would be like one of the fools in Israel. Now therefore, please speak to the king; for he will not withhold me from you." - so fools can be universal. And there are verses like this that speak of seeking Him: NKJ Psalm 22:26 The poor shall eat and be satisfied; Those who seek Him will praise the LORD. Let your heart live forever!

This is why I brought up Rom1. Some [fools] reject God in general revelation. Some people don't. Once they acknowledge the general revelation they know of Him, do they seek Him?
 

cv5

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BTW, Jesus is the Crimson Worm PREPARED to kill the poison plant (Jonah 4).
And God's will insofar as His participation in passion week is ONLY related to SALVATION. His plan of salvation prepared before the foundation of the world.
 

studier

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With all the discussion about sovereignty and what God does and doesn't do, how do some read and explain this verse?

KJV Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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A little irony about what would happen when some of those who presuppose some views ascribed to John Calvin meet Scripture in context:

Eating crow is of a family of idioms having to do with eating and being proven incorrect, such as to "eat dirt", to "eat your hat" (or shoe), or to put one's foot in mouth; all probably originating from "to eat one's words", which first appears in print in 1571 in one of John Calvin's tracts, on Psalm 62: "God eateth not his words when he hath once spoken".[2]
 

Cameron143

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They wanted to kill Jesus. God used his omnipotence to prevent them killoling Jesus by any means other than crucifixion. They tried to kill Jesus by stoning. God prevented them. They tried to kill Jesus by throwing Him off a cliff. God prevented them. So, they did their own will by killing Jesus by crucifixion, which God allowed.
So God did indeed override the volition of men. Thanks. That's what I've been saying all along.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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It amazes me that you refuse to admit that the Pharisees were not commanded by God to kill Jesus.

And yeah, free will is nowhere taught in the Bible. The natural man is a slave to sin. The natural man:

the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners
all our righteous acts are like filthy rags
there are NONE righteous
a bad tree cannot produce good fruit
all are under the control of the evil one
needs to be rescued
his heart is deceitful and desperately wicked
is born dead in transgression and sin
is held captive by a love for sin
will not seek God
he loves the darkness
does not understand the things of God
suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness
continues to willfully live in sin
sinful lifestyle seems right to men
rejects the gospel of Christ as foolishness
hostile toward God in their mind
does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so
It amazes me that you most likely read this from Rufus but still posted what you did.

27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.
28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.


Herod
Pilate
Gentiles
People of Israel
ALL conspired against Jesus
They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen


That is the same thing as was being COMMANDED to do it!

Because they had NO CHOICE but to do it!


And as far as Free Will is concerned, GOD did not make me yield to Him when I was saved.
I yielded to Him because I WANTED to!
My love is GENUINE for GOD because I chose to YIELD, not was forced to.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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It amazes me that you most likely read this from Rufus but still posted what you did.

27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.
28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.


Herod
Pilate
Gentiles
People of Israel
ALL conspired against Jesus
They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen

That is the same thing as was COMMANDED!

Because they had NO CHOICE but to do it!

And as far as Free Will is concerned GOD did not make me yield to Him when I was saved.
I yielded to Him because I WANTED to!
You say it is the same thing, but I don't believe it is. You make God the author of evil. Also, any way
you look at it, you are saying they had no free will in the matter, and then even that you deny.


There is no command for the Pharisees to kill Jesus in the Bible.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Jan 24, 2024
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Isaiah 53:10-12: Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.

It wouldn’t have happened if it had not pleased the Father. Because of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, we can be forgiven of all our sins. When the time came, God made sure that everything said in His prophetic Word would come to pass.
AMEN!

It most definitely was by the Father's power and will that they did kill Jesus.
They had no choice but to do it even if they did not want to do it.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Jan 24, 2024
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You say it is the same thing, but I don't believe it is. You make God the author of evil. Also, any way
you look at it, you are saying they had no free will in the matter, and then even that you deny.


There is no command for the Pharisees to kill Jesus in the Bible.
The BIBLE says it.
Not me.
I am REPEATING the Bible.

How are you forced to do anything?
It has to be a Command by God that forced them to do it.
Or Decree.
Either way God said it will be done and they had no choice but to do it.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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AMEN!

It most definitely was by the Father's power and will that they did kill Jesus.
They had no choice but to do it even if they did not want to do it.
Still no command shown given from God for them to do it. Just your assertion that it was commanded,
and that His will and foreknowledge are the same thing as being commanded, while you deny that them
having no choice in the matter has anything to do with them not having a will that is free.


I am REPEATING the Bible.
No you are not. There is no command given in the Bible for the Pharisees to kill Jesus.

Jeepers.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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So God did indeed override the volition of men. Thanks. That's what I've been saying all along.
The typically erroneous and wholly ignorant response. God DOES NOT NEED to trample on the will of unbelieving men.

The fact is that omniscient God has EVERY CONTINGENCY, every providential solution, every countermeasure strategy PREPARED before the foundation of the world.......in terms of His plan of salvation as it relates to those who believe Him and put their trust in Him.

The rest? Judgement/separation. Sooner or later. Which puts an end to THEIR evil will as it affects His creation.

Presently, the evil will of evil entities IS ALLOWED to manifest. But not forever.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Jan 24, 2024
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Still no command shown given from God for them to do it. Just your assertion that it was commanded,
and that His will and foreknowledge are the same thing as being commanded, while you deny that them
having no choice in the matter has anything to do with them not having a will that is free.



No you are not. There is no command given in the Bible for the Pharisees to kill Jesus.

Jeepers.
I never said these people had no choice in the matter.
Before they were ever created, ever were appointed to live, they all came on earth around same times or that they all would be on earth at the same time as Jesus was on earth.
And they were always going to do this.
They were always going to kill Jesus.
It was by God's Command or Decree for this to happen.
Use God's Design then but it was GOD WHO DID THIS!

You are arguing based on a single word but what happened is the SAME THING AS A COMMAND WAS GIVEN whether you like it or not!