There will be no Rapture!!!

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Musicmaster

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Feb 8, 2021
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As no one will see Jesus in the "secret Rapture" like they will at His second coming.
Ok. Secret ONLY in the sense of the unbeliever's seeing Him? I think I get it.

What value would there be in unbelievers seeing Him come for the Church in the air, as is stated in 2 Thessalonians 2? If there were some value in it, then the Lord would allow them to see Him.

That's the beauty of His being Sovereign...He can do it all any way He darn well desires for it to be, and when allegorizers don't like that, then they will simply have to lump it together with all the other things over which they have no control in this life.

MM
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Sounds like those scholars allegorized it all to fit their preconceptions. If scholars were infallible, then they would all agree with one another, but given the harsh realities....

MM
It only mentioned several not all of them. But it's interesting those several concluded to this view.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Ok. Secret ONLY in the sense of the unbeliever's seeing Him? I think I get it.

What value would there be in unbelievers seeing Him come for the Church in the air, as is stated in 2 Thessalonians 2? If there were some value in it, then the Lord would allow them to see Him.

That's the beauty of His being Sovereign...He can do it all any way He darn well desires for it to be, and when allegorizers don't like that, then they will simply have to lump it together with all the other things over which they have no control in this life.

MM
There is no such world Sovereign in the Bible anywhere.

There's a word English turned into Sovereign but in the Hebrew means specifically LORD GOD.

But at the Second Coming states everyone will see Jesus Return. So for it to be a secret means not see Him.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Satan thrown down like lightning was about the prehistoric war that was fought on earth before Adam was created!
Its why we find fossils today of animals that have nothing to do with this creation.

Jeremiah was dealing with the degenerated - murderous - rebellious Jewish people.
To tell them how severe they were going to be judged by God?
Jeremiah cited Genesis 1:2!
Why Genesis 1:2? It was to warn them of how severe God was going to judge them!

When citing Genesis 1:2 in the Hebrew the Jews knew Hebrew did not need to look at a concordance.
They knew what Jeremiah was prophesying about for them!

Just the same..
Jeremiah needed to add something after citing Genesis 1:2.
Added as to let the Jews know something.
That unlike what the earth had become in Genesis 1:2?
In their case, unlike the earth was found in 1:2, they would not be utterly destroyed!
Utter destruction is what we find in the Hebrew describing the earth in Genesis 1:2!

Meaning...
Unlike the destruction the earth faced in Genesis 1:2?
Their land and life would not be utterly destroyed!
Destroyed as God had done to the prehistoric world!

That is why Satan was THROWN DOWN to earth like lightning!
Which resulted in the extinction of the dinosaurs!
Which some scientists now hypothesize was destruction by a giant asteroid.
Satan had been the morning star angel to bring light to earth for mornings in the prehistoric world!

Jeremiah 4:21-28​
21
How long must I see the battle standard
and hear the sound of the trumpet?
22
“My people are fools;
they do not know me.
They are senseless children;
they have no understanding.
They are skilled in doing evil;
they know not how to do good.”
23
I looked at the earth,
and it was formless and empty;
and at the heavens,
and their light was gone. verse 23 was from Genesis 1:2 in the Hebrew!)
24
I looked at the mountains,
and they were quaking;
all the hills were swaying.
25
I looked, and there were no people;
every bird in the sky had flown away.
26
I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;
all its towns lay in ruins
before the Lord, before his fierce anger.
27 This is what the Lord says:
“The whole land will be ruined,
though I will not destroy it completely.
28
Therefore the earth will mourn
and the heavens above grow dark,
because I have spoken and will not relent,
I have decided and will not turn back.”
Verse 27 was saying that unlike Genesis 1:2, that​
this time the earth would not utterly be destroyed!!!!​
There is much truth yet to learn!​
That was the time when Satan was thrown down like lightning!​
:coffee::coffee::coffee: here we go again.....​
Some must act stupid as to not get it.​
1)Satan thrown down like lightning was about the prehistoric war that was fought on earth before Adam was created!
Its why we find fossils today of animals that have nothing to do with this creation.

Yes, definitely an intriguing line of reasoning. It resolves much. I would opine that Satan corrupted that earlier creation much the same way as Genesis 6.

2)Jeremiah cited Genesis 1:2!

Did not realize that! Good detective work buddy.

The more I think about it, the more the Gen 1:2 "gap theory" makes sense. Its very likely the fact of the matter.
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
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There is no such world Sovereign in the Bible anywhere.

There's a word English turned into Sovereign but in the Hebrew means specifically LORD GOD.

But at the Second Coming states everyone will see Jesus Return. So for it to be a secret means not see Him.
This sounds like more of that trash from those pagan church fathers to whom you make so many appeals, all of whom were greatly influenced by Aristotelian and Platonian bull crap philosophies. Those wicked men have done nothing but to create a Westernized version of Christendom rather than biblical Christianity!

MM
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Rev 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

When? Not so far in recorded history. But soon.
 

sawdust

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Feb 12, 2024
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But at the Second Coming states everyone will see Jesus Return. So for it to be a secret means not see Him.
The problem as I see it is those who don't believe in the Resurrection of the Church prior to the Great Tribulation always conflate that event with the Second Coming and therefore always see them as occurring at the same time.

The problem I find with the two events occurring simultaneously is a practical one. As I understand the Second Coming, Christ will remove all unbelievers from the face of the earth so, if all believers (which is everyone who is left) are resurrected at this time, what point for a Millennium or how do you have Armageddon? Why is Christ even returning to Earth? Our citizenship is in heaven, not on the Earth. Little point setting up a Kingdom here. It simply does not make sense to me.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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The problem as I see it is those who don't believe in the Resurrection of the Church prior to the Great Tribulation always conflate that event with the Second Coming and therefore always see them as occurring at the same time.

The problem I find with the two events occurring simultaneously is a practical one. As I understand the Second Coming, Christ will remove all unbelievers from the face of the earth so, if all believers (which is everyone who is left) are resurrected at this time, what point for a Millennium or how do you have Armageddon? Why is Christ even returning to Earth? Our citizenship is in heaven, not on the Earth. Little point setting up a Kingdom here. It simply does not make sense to me.
WARNING: Logic kills.

:coffee::coffee::coffee:
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
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The problem as I see it is those who don't believe in the Resurrection of the Church prior to the Great Tribulation always conflate that event with the Second Coming and therefore always see them as occurring at the same time.

The problem I find with the two events occurring simultaneously is a practical one. As I understand the Second Coming, Christ will remove all unbelievers from the face of the earth so, if all believers (which is everyone who is left) are resurrected at this time, what point for a Millennium or how do you have Armageddon? Why is Christ even returning to Earth? Our citizenship is in heaven, not on the Earth. Little point setting up a Kingdom here. It simply does not make sense to me.
Many say Satan’s deception in the garden is why we all have a fallen nature, so we tend to use that as an excuse for making bad choices. What if God created a situation (the Millinium)
and removed Satan as an excuse, as a lesson to those who blame anyone but themselves?
 

Burn1986

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Mar 4, 2024
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There will be no pre or mid tribulation rapture. This is an invention of the dispensationalists. The Pre-Rapture was invented by the dispensationalist John Darby in the 19th century. It did not exist before that. Church history did not know a Pre-Rapture before the 19th century.

The Bible clearly states that Christians must go through the Tribulation, for Revelation 20:4 describes how Christians will be beheaded for their faith during the Tribulation. If there really was a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then logically there would be no Christians in the Tribulation, but because there will be Christians in the Tribulation, that means there will be no Pre-Tribulation Rapture! Revelation 13:7 also declares that Christians will be given into the hand of the Antichrist, which means the Antichrist may overcome Christians and kill them.

Jesus will return only once and that is after the tribulation. Then he will gather all Christians.
3000 posts later… I think we all got it figured out for ya back on post 985.
 

sawdust

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Many say Satan’s deception in the garden is why we all have a fallen nature, so we tend to use that as an excuse for making bad choices. What if God created a situation (the Millinium)
and removed Satan as an excuse, as a lesson to those who blame anyone but themselves?
I get what you're saying. As far as I'm concerned the reason we have the Millennium is to show that, even in perfect environment, the source of our trouble comes from within. But the scenario I was suggesting above had all believers in their resurrection bodies prior to the Millennium therefore, why have one? We no longer have a fallen nature.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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Many say Satan’s deception in the garden is why we all have a fallen nature, so we tend to use that as an excuse for making bad choices. What if God created a situation (the Millinium)
and removed Satan as an excuse, as a lesson to those who blame anyone but themselves?

 

FollowerofShiloh

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Jan 24, 2024
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The problem as I see it is those who don't believe in the Resurrection of the Church prior to the Great Tribulation always conflate that event with the Second Coming and therefore always see them as occurring at the same time.

The problem I find with the two events occurring simultaneously is a practical one. As I understand the Second Coming, Christ will remove all unbelievers from the face of the earth so, if all believers (which is everyone who is left) are resurrected at this time, what point for a Millennium or how do you have Armageddon? Why is Christ even returning to Earth? Our citizenship is in heaven, not on the Earth. Little point setting up a Kingdom here. It simply does not make sense to me.
People will be getting saved throughout the entire Tribulation Period. So when is Jesus collecting them all to take to Heaven?
 

sawdust

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People will be getting saved throughout the entire Tribulation Period. So when is Jesus collecting them all to take to Heaven?
Those saved during the tribulation enter the Millennium. They are not given their resurrection bodies until the end of that period and they are not going to heaven. Their citizenship is of the New Earth.

I'm not sure when you think we (the Church) get our new bodies. If at the Second Coming which, is after the Tribulation but before the Millennium, then there is no point to a Millennium period. Every believer would have been resurrected so no more earthly (mortal) life for anyone. Not sure how you think Armageddon can come out from that scenario.

If not until the end of the Millennium then you have no resurrection at the Second Coming and as far as I can tell, most people think the Second Coming and Resurrection occur simultaneously.

It only makes sense to me if 1Cor.15:23 is understood as the whole family of God (all believers) are of different divisions and hence being raised in different classes at different times.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

We know there are different divisions (classes) amongst the angels (seraphim, cherubim etc), so it makes sense there are divisions amongst men.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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Those saved during the tribulation enter the Millennium. They are not given their resurrection bodies until the end of that period and they are not going to heaven. Their citizenship is of the New Earth.

I'm not sure when you think we (the Church) get our new bodies. If at the Second Coming which, is after the Tribulation but before the Millennium, then there is no point to a Millennium period. Every believer would have been resurrected so no more earthly (mortal) life for anyone. Not sure how you think Armageddon can come out from that scenario.

If not until the end of the Millennium then you have no resurrection at the Second Coming and as far as I can tell, most people think the Second Coming and Resurrection occur simultaneously.

It only makes sense to me if 1Cor.15:23 is understood as the whole family of God (all believers) are of different divisions and hence being raised in different classes at different times.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

We know there are different divisions (classes) amongst the angels (seraphim, cherubim etc), so it makes sense there are divisions amongst men.
Where will Jesus be during the Millenium?
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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Those saved during the tribulation enter the Millennium. They are not given their resurrection bodies until the end of that period and they are not going to heaven. Their citizenship is of the New Earth.

I'm not sure when you think we (the Church) get our new bodies. If at the Second Coming which, is after the Tribulation but before the Millennium, then there is no point to a Millennium period. Every believer would have been resurrected so no more earthly (mortal) life for anyone. Not sure how you think Armageddon can come out from that scenario.

If not until the end of the Millennium then you have no resurrection at the Second Coming and as far as I can tell, most people think the Second Coming and Resurrection occur simultaneously.

It only makes sense to me if 1Cor.15:23 is understood as the whole family of God (all believers) are of different divisions and hence being raised in different classes at different times.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

We know there are different divisions (classes) amongst the angels (seraphim, cherubim etc), so it makes sense there are divisions amongst men.
That seems odd because even Jesus proclaims in Matthew 24 that after Tribulation ends He comes in the [clouds] and sends His Angels to ""gather the Elect."" He even said [and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see ‘the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven] <--- this happens before the Gathering.

So, if Jesus is in the clouds, it's at the "END of Tribulation," and the Elect are gathered by the Angels....aren't they bringing what the Elect they Gather to where Jesus is at...[in the clouds]?
 

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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Ruling the world from Jerusalem (in respect to His humanity). Being God, He will be everywhere always.
Ok. This is how I understand it so, what doesn't make sense to me is that his bride will be somewhere else, since I understand that he goes to prepare a place for them so that where He is they can be also.