Total Depravity

and that is why we should not add nor subtract from God's Word...

I don't know if born again believers fully comprehend the love of God. check out Ephesians 3 ...

Ephesians 3:17-19 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

I don't even know if we'll comprehend the fullness God's love in eternity ... it's always more and more and more. The more I love God, the greater my capacity to love Him even more ... it just keeps expanding.
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i find the concept of Adam being ignorant of God a bit weird.

after all, if he really thought he could hide, why would he be afraid?

Being born after our parents just makes the image of God in man corrupted; not nonexistent. All a part of what Jesus came to fix. That's one way in which He destroys the works of the devil.

From Ephesians 3:14-19

People hide because they are afraid... and that is why Adam hid himself.

Plus, how could Adam fully know God? We surely do not...

Your two Bible references do not say "that even the “good” things man does are tainted by sin because they are not done for the glory
of God and out of faith in Him".

I also noted this subtle distinction. Sin entered into the world and so also death by sin. We don't have any (earthly) examples to demonstrate the result of any man were to go through life without given into to temptation apart from Jesus, of course.

"I looked and there was no one...therefore my own arm brought salvation to me" comes to mind.

Are there any scriptures that confirm your opinion expressed here.

Or rather, why even eat the poison in the first place? Yet it is in our nature to do so.

And yes, expelling them from the garden and guarding the way of the Tree of Life, so they cannot
eat from it also and live forever in their sinful state... I see this as another argument against ECT.

(I did not see this post earlier .)

We are born without sin we exist for a short time as innocents before the sin nature we inherit from Adam and Eve activates within us..

Romans 7

9I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.

We are not born having guilt for the sins of Adam or Eve.. But once we pass the time of innocence we come to the knowledge of sin and from that moment on we are sinners.. Adam and Eve where good up to the point of coming to the knowledge of good and evil, God himself in the Old Testament declared that there where little ones in the camp of the Hebrews that at the time of their rebellion had no knowledge of good and evil and thus where preserved through the 40 years in the wilderness and would later enter into the promised land..

Deuteronomy 1:39

"Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.


As for calvanistic total depravity the definition of that doctrine is below..

T,U,L,I,P

"T" in "TULIP" stands for "Total Hereditary Depravity."

"Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God."


Just to make it clear i am NOT a Calvinist.. Just providing the cavinist definition of their doctrine ..

wow, that's very interesting!

i've never thought or heard of this as a place to debate ECT..

but it really fits; good point!

We are born without sin, sinless.

1. John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit while in the womb. Therefore he could not have been a sinner and guilty before God in the womb.

King James Bible Luke 1:15
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from (ek: out of) his mother's womb. The
preposition ek indicates starting from insode something and moving out of it. So John was filled with the Holy Spirit before leaving the womb. Another preposition "apo" is used to describe an action staring outside something and moving away from it. This p[reposition is udsed in the LXX ofthe nect text,, Ps.58:3.
2. Children are born innocent and go astray by speaking lies after they leave the womb . No child speaks while in the womb.

Ps. 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: They go astray from the belly, speaking lies. (LXX "from the womb" = "apo gastros", i.e. from some time after the womb.

3. Before anyone learns some moral law, sin was dead.and we were alive

But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

It is not in us doemant waiting to be activated. It is outside us, dead to us until we lern and understand some moral law. When we disobey our conscience, the sin that was dead gets in. like a computer virus, and starts to hijack parts of our operating system.

gen 4:7 Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master. ' KJV If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.

You are not following your own OP.

"Please prove from the word the difference and which is correct,"

Nehemiah6 said:
TOTAL DEPRAVITY makes the false claim that the unsaved are totally incapable of understanding and believing the Gospel.

HOw does your alluded to verse disagree with Nehemiah?
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Nehemiah6 said:
TOTAL DEPRAVITY makes the false claim that the unsaved are totally incapable of understanding and believing the Gospel.

1 Corinthians 2:14

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

This passage of scripture does not connect "the natural (psuchikos) man" with "the unregenerate man".

Neither does Romans 8 connect "the man who sets his mind on the flesh" to only the unregenetrate man".

The doctrine of “total depravity” originated with John Calvin in the 16th century. That makes it 1500 years too late to be a doctrine of Christ. That also makes it a “doctrine of man”. Matt. 15:9, Mark 7:7, Colossians 2:22

Ezekiel 18 pretty much destroys this doctrine.
Christ said little children are of the kingdom of God. They are innocent and since God said long ago that children do not inherit the sins of their fathers, they are sinless. And He said unless we become like them, we cannot go to heaven. Christ used children as an example of “purity.”

Psalms 106:38 says those people “shed innocent blood”, the blood of their sons and daughters. The doctrine of “total depravity” according to John Calvin is wrong. 2 John 9 says if we don’t abide in the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST we don’t have God. Matthew 7 is a picture of what will happen at the end of time to people who practice “lawlessness” ( out side of God’s law) 7:21-23.

People were asking about what Total depravity ment. And if we can believe in it differently calvanists.

My research shows that there is a difference between the sinful nature and the sinful act.

We are born with a sinful nature, but the action is a choice.

The main issues with Total Depravity/Original Sin type doctrines is that they are premised on the idea that we inheritted Adam's sin or sinful nature. People often misinterpret Paul then to support this when Paul draws comparison between Adam and Jesus, but Paul is really just noting that death and sin enterred the world with Adam. In light of Ezekiel 18 as well as many other passages it's clear that sin is not inheritted and people are not held guilty for the sins of their parents. This then makes option 2 somewhat tempting but then there is a problem with that in that God doesn't tempt anyone as many scriptures state and God did not make us imperfect or flawed or with a propensity towards sin so then we can rule that option out as well. Really even when we are children we are more pure and minded towards God and know that there is a God even if we don't have a great understanding of him. So it is most correct to say we are born sinless and we are born good, but that we all will fall away and commit sin at some point or the other due to the influence of the world. The key element here is the world, since the fall of Adam sin enterred the world and so the world is the primary source of the corruption and the world is still in existence and still in a corrupted status. As we grow up we're going to get conflicting information about God and about what is good and evil from the world (ie: our parents, our society, our peers, the savagery of nature itself, etc.) It is then this conflicting information that leads men to sin, it is men taking the side of the world that leads them to commit sin. This is then the fundamental principle behind the verses and idea that we are in the world but not to be of the world, and that the friends of the world are the enemies of God.