Total Depravity

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
Which one metaphor applies to you? Are you a sheep, or a living stone, or a caught fish, or a blade of grass, or smoke, a slave, a son/daughter.... ? Are you really that naive as to think that someone who is at one time described by metaphor as a goat, cannot at another time and in another context be described by metaphor as a sheep, or a stone or a pillar or a fish?
God makes a distinction between sheep and goats, a division.

each of the other metaphors you mention are part of divided pairs. evil is never righteous.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
1,189
233
63
Which one metaphor applies to you? Are you a sheep, or a living stone, or a caught fish, or a blade of grass, or smoke, a slave, a son/daughter.... ? Are you really that naive as to think that someone who is at one time described by metaphor as a goat, cannot at another time and in another context be described by metaphor as a sheep, or a stone or a pillar or a fish?
I've not read 39 pages of this, but isn't Matt25 as simple as using 25:37 to say that if God cannot change a nation - people - from a metaphorical goat into a metaphorical sheep (a follower of His), then He cannot change the unrighteous into the righteous... There's a reason righteousness is brought up in 25:37.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
Instantaneously means at the same time, not in the future. How do you know that information can only travel at the speed of light. Your assertions are unpersuasive.
part of the basis of the physical theory you appealed to is that information cannot travel faster than light.

there is no such thing as probability density fields for future actions if you remove that: without the information 'speed limit' the universe is deterministic, which nullifies your argument completely.

if you don't understand quantum physics perhaps you shouldn't try using it in debates.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
Instantaneously means at the same time, not in the future. How do you know that information can only travel at the speed of light. Your assertions are unpersuasive.
a coupled quark B reacts instantaneously to observation of its counterpart A.
we can separate the pair, and B has knowledge of A that is in Bs future.
that information doesn't exist without the universal observer, Who exists prima fascie. therefore the universal observer knows B's future.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
part of the basis of the physical theory you appealed to is that information cannot travel faster than light.

there is no such thing as probability density fields for future actions if you remove that: without the information 'speed limit' the universe is deterministic, which nullifies your argument completely.

if you don't understand quantum physics perhaps you shouldn't try using it in debates.
You say: "part of the basis of the physical theory you appealed to is that information cannot travel faster than light."

Really? I didn't say that, so how is it "part of the basis of the physical theory I appealed to"?

You said: " there is no such thing as probability density fields for future actions " I haven't said there are. I never mentioned probability density fields.

You say: "without the information 'speed limit' the universe is deterministic, which nullifies your argument completely.' You would need to show some connection between your comments and my actual statements to start to make your statements here meaningful.

If you want to introduce quantum physics into debates, you need to be able to explain it to readers. You are not doing very well at that.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
a coupled quark B reacts instantaneously to observation of its counterpart A.
we can separate the pair, and B has knowledge of A that is in Bs future.
that information doesn't exist without the universal observer, Who exists prima fascie. therefore the universal observer knows B's future.
If the synchronicity is simultaneous, the knowledge is not of the future but of the present.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
You said: " there is no such thing as probability density fields for future actions " I haven't said there are. I never mentioned probability density fields.
Ahem.

the future is a series of probability functions that only collapse into certainty when they become the present
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
God makes a distinction between sheep and goats, a division.

each of the other metaphors you mention are part of divided pairs. evil is never righteous.
It sounds like you may now be advocating for literal "Total Depravity". Yu seem to be arguing that something cannot contain both evil elements and righteous elements. It must be either totally righteous or totally evil/depraved.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
"
PHILOSOPHIES OF PROBABILITY

Jon Williamson, in Philosophy of Mathematics, 2009
2 VARIABLES


"The most basic framework for probability involves defining a probability function relative to a finite set V of variables, each of which takes finitely many possible values. I shall write v@V to indicate that N is an assignment of values to V.
A probability function on V is a function P that maps each assignment v@V to a non-negative real number and which satisfies additivity:
∑𝜐@𝑉𝑃(𝜐)=1.
This restriction forces each probability P(v) to lie in the unit interval [0,1]." https://www.sciencedirect.com/topic...xt=A probability function on V,interval [0,1].

"probability density function (PDF), in statistics, a function whose integral is calculated to find probabilities associated with a continuous random variable (see continuity; probability theory). Its graph is a curve above the horizontal axis that defines a total area, between itself and the axis, of 1.21 Jun 2024" https://www.britannica.com/science/density-function
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
a coupled quark B reacts instantaneously to observation of its counterpart A.
we can separate the pair, and B has knowledge of A that is in Bs future.
that information doesn't exist without the universal observer, Who exists prima fascie. therefore the universal observer knows B's future.
Instantaneous means -

Instantaneous Definition & Meaning
1721828192359.png
Merriam-Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › instant...



The meaning of INSTANTANEOUS is done, occurring, or acting without any perceptible duration of time.

You are not making sense. How can an event that happens instantaneously with another event be happening in a different now?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
It sounds like you may now be advocating for literal "Total Depravity". Yu seem to be arguing that something cannot contain both evil elements and righteous elements. It must be either totally righteous or totally evil/depraved.
in Leviticus no offering with a blemish is acceptable.
if the priest finds even a single spot of leprosy, a person is a leper.

so yes i don't believe you can be "only a little bit leper" and no one is half-sheep/half goat, as the Bible defines these things. in the same way the epistles make a clear distinction between the natural man and the spiritual man, the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit.


this is how the scripture says, all have sinned, there is no one good, but God alone. maybe you don't sin as often as someone else, but that doesn't make you holy apart from the covering of the blood of the Lamb that takes away sin.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
Instantaneous means -

Instantaneous Definition & Meaning
View attachment 265717
Merriam-Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › instant...



The meaning of INSTANTANEOUS is done, occurring, or acting without any perceptible duration of time.

You are not making sense. How can an event that happens instantaneously with another event be happening in a different now?
i would suggest you look up a Minkowski space-time diagram while you're studying this topic. understanding them and why they exist is a good start.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
"
PHILOSOPHIES OF PROBABILITY

Jon Williamson, in Philosophy of Mathematics, 2009
2 VARIABLES


"The most basic framework for probability involves defining a probability function relative to a finite set V of variables, each of which takes finitely many possible values. I shall write v@V to indicate that N is an assignment of values to V.
A probability function on V is a function P that maps each assignment v@V to a non-negative real number and which satisfies additivity:
∑𝜐@𝑉𝑃(𝜐)=1.
This restriction forces each probability P(v) to lie in the unit interval [0,1]." https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/mathematics/probability-function#:~:text=A probability function on V,interval [0,1].

"probability density function (PDF), in statistics, a function whose integral is calculated to find probabilities associated with a continuous random variable (see continuity; probability theory). Its graph is a curve above the horizontal axis that defines a total area, between itself and the axis, of 1.21 Jun 2024" https://www.britannica.com/science/density-function
the PDF is simply the derivative of the probability function P.
a field is a set with defined operators {+, -, *, /}

P & PDF both map to R, and R is a field.
QED.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
It sounds like you may now be advocating for literal "Total Depravity". Yu seem to be arguing that something cannot contain both evil elements and righteous elements. It must be either totally righteous or totally evil/depraved.
right back to Genesis 1-4 again.
the LORD separated the light from the darkness.
 

Hakawaka

Active member
Jul 1, 2021
308
158
43
I think you guys are reading too much into parables if you try to make them as if someone is a wheat from BIRTH: even The Bible doesnt say people are in Christ from ETERNITY or before the foundation of the world (despite whhat you think Ephesians 1:4 says).Proof:

Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

We arent in Christ from eternity, we are in Christ after we believe the Gospel... IN TIME

Btw: I Just heard James White react to someone who quoted from John 16: "For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. "

And James White went "uhh. im not sure what verse is being referenced here." because that would conflict his system and be "synergism".
Either he really is ignorant of the Scriptures after being in the field for decades, or just doesn't have an answer
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,973
420
83
I'm more interested in what the Bible says than in what you think it means. What? Do you really think that a person can only own one metaphorical identity per lifetime?:LOL::ROFL:
You must be an exciting person to have next to someone while giving at a blood donor drive.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,973
420
83
It sounds like you may now be advocating for literal "Total Depravity". Yu seem to be arguing that something cannot contain both evil elements and righteous elements. It must be either totally righteous or totally evil/depraved.
A little yeast leavens the whole lump.

If you break one part of the Law you have broken all the Law. James 2:10

You are either righteous. Or, you're not.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,927
2,296
113
I think you guys are reading too much into parables if you try to make them as if someone is a wheat from BIRTH: even The Bible doesnt say people are in Christ from ETERNITY or before the foundation of the world (despite whhat you think Ephesians 1:4 says).Proof:

Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

We arent in Christ from eternity, we are in Christ after we believe the Gospel... IN TIME

Btw: I Just heard James White react to someone who quoted from John 16: "For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. "

And James White went "uhh. im not sure what verse is being referenced here." because that would conflict his system and be "synergism".
Either he really is ignorant of the Scriptures after being in the field for decades, or just doesn't have an answer
Yes exactly, I think farmers may have a better understanding than theologians.
 

Hakawaka

Active member
Jul 1, 2021
308
158
43
Yes exactly, I think farmers may have a better understanding than theologians.
The Bible does teach that actually:


"Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?"

Paul says something very similar in 1 Corinthians as well. Less theologians, more faith working thru love.

I don't listen to many teachers but my favorite one is Steve Gregg. He is very "close to earth" humble friendly fella.