Total Depravity

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,935
419
83
Yes exactly, I think farmers may have a better understanding than theologians.

Some prophets who wrote parts of the Bible had been farmers.
One of the best theologian pastors I know of grew up on a farm.

The Prophet Elisha comes to mind.
 

sawdust

Active member
Feb 12, 2024
937
194
43
67
Australia
Being right or wrong in anticipating the future is not a moral issue. It has nothing to do with righteousness.
Being right or wrong has nothing to do with righteousness? Which world did you say you live in? I'd like to live in a world where being wrong can make me right. ;)
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,935
419
83
Being right or wrong has nothing to do with righteousness? Which world did you say you live in? I'd like to live in a world where being wrong can make me right. ;)
Paul was wrong and ended up going to prison.

Well, being wrong?

Made him 'write.'


;):coffee::coffee::coffee:
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
i would suggest you look up a Minkowski space-time diagram while you're studying this topic. understanding them and why they exist is a good start.
I have gone as deeply into quantum physics as I need to to know that the future is not certain until it becomes the present.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
in Leviticus no offering with a blemish is acceptable.
if the priest finds even a single spot of leprosy, a person is a leper.

so yes i don't believe you can be "only a little bit leper" and no one is half-sheep/half goat, as the Bible defines these things. in the same way the epistles make a clear distinction between the natural man and the spiritual man, the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit.


this is how the scripture says, all have sinned, there is no one good, but God alone. maybe you don't sin as often as someone else, but that doesn't make you holy apart from the covering of the blood of the Lamb that takes away sin.
So, there can be no old man / new man dichotomy within a Christian? Paul was wrong on that issue, according to you?

17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.
20 That, however, is not the way of life you learned 21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26 “In your anger do not sin”[d]: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold. 28 Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.
29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,843
13,558
113
the PDF is simply the derivative of the probability function P.
a field is a set with defined operators {+, -, *, /}

P & PDF both map to R, and R is a field.
QED.
@PaulThomson dunno why you bring up math if you find it boring

:LOL:
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,843
13,558
113
I have gone as deeply into quantum physics as I need to to know that the future is not certain until it becomes the present.
it's not worthless to go gain knowledge.
but it is a difficult and complex subject.

no foul if you don't have the inclination to learn, but it is worth it if you do.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,935
419
83
I have gone as deeply into quantum physics as I need to to know that the future is not certain until it becomes the present.
Certain for you, maybe.

Not God, who invented time itself.

If he can walk on water?
He can even bend time.

He can take us well beyond the realm of quantum physics, which will seem merely simplistic like learning the alphabet
once we are in our resurrection bodies.

There will be no being stuck in the past, present, or future when we are fully living in eternal life.

Don't try to imagine what that will be like.
You will start feeling like you are gong insane if you ponder it too deeply. :unsure:

grace and peace ................
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,843
13,558
113
So, there can be no old man / new man dichotomy within a Christian? Paul was wrong on that issue, according to you?

17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.
20 That, however, is not the way of life you learned 21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26 “In your anger do not sin”[d]: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold. 28 Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.
29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
have a look at Romans 6 and count how mamy times the old man is said to have died.

if you are in Christ you are a new creation, and the old things have passed away.

that is why the language in the passage you gave, of "put off the old man" is the same language you would use to describe changing your clothes and setting aside your old garment.

stop dragging that corpse around with you, is an equivalent way to give the same advice.

no one is simultaneously saved and unsaved, no.
 

sawdust

Active member
Feb 12, 2024
937
194
43
67
Australia
I have gone as deeply into quantum physics as I need to to know that the future is not certain until it becomes the present.
To men that is the case. Stop treating God as if He is a man. At the rate you're going we may as well determine what God is like by the eruption of the local volcano, forget what He says in His word.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

The future is known to God and has always been known.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
have a look at Romans 6 and count how mamy times the old man is said to have died.

if you are in Christ you are a new creation, and the old things have passed away.

that is why the language in the passage you gave, of "put off the old man" is the same language you would use to describe changing your clothes and setting aside your old garment.

stop dragging that corpse around with you, is an equivalent way to give the same advice.

no one is simultaneously saved and unsaved, no.
You just contradicted yourself in the space of four sentences.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
@PaulThomson dunno why you bring up math if you find it boring

:LOL:
The only reason I cited definitions for probability function and probability density field is that I had mentioned the former and you claimed I had said the latter, and they are clearly not exactly the same concept.

You are making a nonsense argument from your misunderstanding of quantum physics and bound particles. Bound particles synchronise simultaneously, that is instantaneously, that is in the same present. You are making the ridiculous assertion that if the two bound particles are on opposite sides of universe and a change is induced in one, and the other instantaneously conforms to the first, the second particle is really foretelling what the first will do because (you claim) information cannot be communicated faster than the speed of light. But you have just cited an example of information communicating instantaneously acoss light years of space. Light-years is a metric of distance, not of time.

My claim is that the future is a bouquet of constantly branching probability functions, and the further from the present one extends one's anticipation of events the exponentially more possibilities there are, making te future uncertain. The only way God can predict a future event as certain is for Him to intervene in events using His omnipotence to ensure an event to happens as predicted. And the only way God could be able to predict all future events would be formHim to be continuously intevening in events using His omnipotence to ensure that every event happens exactly as He has predetermined it to do. That would make g\God the Author of every evil that occurs.

Now, I have had enough of your foolish pretending to understand quantum physics work. Your theories do not match observation. They are based on metaphysical presupposition that are not found in scripture, and the conclusions they lead to contradict scripture. You may carry on if you want, but I am done with your quantum physics nonsense proofs.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
Certain for you, maybe.

Not God, who invented time itself.

If he can walk on water?
He can even bend time.

He can take us well beyond the realm of quantum physics, which will seem merely simplistic like learning the alphabet
once we are in our resurrection bodies.

There will be no being stuck in the past, present, or future when we are fully living in eternal life.

Don't try to imagine what that will be like.
You will start feeling like you are gong insane if you ponder it too deeply. :unsure:

grace and peace ................
Appeal to mystery is alogical fallacy. You should avoid it when possible. There is no mystery in how God can predict some future events despite not knowing all future events. The Bible explains it by citing His omnipotence. But for God to know all the future, He would have to be using His omnipotence to make the future conform to His supposed exhaustive predictions of the future, and that would mean God would be deliberately causing all things, including every evil. You may be cool with that, but I don't want to go there.

God is perfectly good and all powerful. I can trust Him on that basis. I don't need Him to be able to predict the entire future of all things to trust a perfectly good and omnipotent Creator and saviour.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,935
419
83
To men that is the case. Stop treating God as if He is a man. At the rate you're going we may as well determine what God is like by the eruption of the local volcano, forget what He says in His word..
Perhaps?
Keep in mind.... Romans 1:18b-20
Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature
—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without
excuse.

grace and peace ................
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
To men that is the case. Stop treating God as if He is a man. At the rate you're going we may as well determine what God is like by the eruption of the local volcano, forget what He says in His word.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

The future is known to God and has always been known.
Isaiah 46:10 does not state that God has exhaustive foreknowledge of all things. Nor does it state that everything that happens is God's pleasure. Nor does it state that all things that will ever be were declared or determined before the beginning of the world. Nor does it state that future events are already a done deal.

You should stop misrepresenting what God says as though He is saying something else. We should all pay more careful attention to what He actually says and actually does not say in His word.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,935
419
83
Appeal to mystery is alogical fallacy. You should avoid it when possible. There is no mystery in how God can predict some future events despite not knowing all future events.
God is not predicting.

God is simply reporting.

For He's already there!
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,935
419
83
Isaiah 46:10 does not state that God has exhaustive foreknowledge of all things.
God has perfect knowledge of all things.
He knows all things that could have been.

That is why He has His decrees. His decrees are to keep it simple enough for us, and not
require for us to live for a 100,000 years to see what all our options might have been.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
God has perfect knowledge of all things.
He knows all things that could have been.

That is why He has His decrees. His decrees are to keep it simple enough for us, and not
require for us to live for a 100,000 years to see what all our options might have been.
Making metaphysical assertions unsupported by scripture is not persuasive.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
God is not predicting.

God is simply reporting.

For He's already there!
Making metaphysical assertions without scriptural support is not persuasive.

What scripture says God is already present in the future?