My God, My God. Why have you forsaken me?

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Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
#21
Sep 2, 2020
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#21
tedincarolina said:
Hi believers,

For many years I wondered about these words that Jesus spoke. Why would God forsake His Son for doing exactly what he was supposed to do. I mean the old covenant is clear that Jesus had to die for our sin. So, he did. He brought glory to the Father through his steadfast love and obedience to all that his Father asked of him. Why would God forsake him for that?

However, I have since come to an understanding that answers my ponderings. God did not forsake His Son. Jesus referred to himself as Rabbi. He said at one time, "You call me Rabbi and so it is." A Rabbi is a Jewish teacher. Jesus was a Jewish teacher to Israel. In the early beginning of his ministry in a gathering of Jewish believers in Nazareth, he read and proclaimed the words of the prophet Isaiah. He then told the people in attendance that this prophecy was being fulfilled in their very hearing. So, Jesus opened his ministry with likely the most powerful and accurate description of all that Messiah was supposed to do. Then he went out and did it.

As the end of his ministry, he also closed with one of the most powerful words of the Scriptures about how his death was going to happen. That passage begins, My God, my God. Why have you forsaken me?

So, he began his ministry telling everyone from the Scriptures all that Messiah was going to do as he lived among us. He closed his ministry telling everyone from the Scriptures that they were witnessing the very death that had been prophesied by Isaiah, also. It's a practice that is referred to as 'remez'. Remez is a technique of using part of a Scripture passage to imply the fuller meaning of a teaching.

In Israel, in the days of Jesus, the Scriptures did not have chapter and verses as we have today to easily locate a passage that a preacher might be teaching on. In our day, our teachers just say, "turn in your bibles to the book of Acts chapter 3 vs 12- 18." Everyone opens their copy of the Scriptures to the book of Acts chapter 3 and verse 12. But in Jesus day there was no such way to identify where a teaching might be coming from in the Scriptures. So, it was a very common practice for the teacher to begin by quoting a particular passage and everyone would know where that passage was and be able to see where the teaching was in the Scriptures. This is what Jesus was doing for those chief priests and scribes and pharisees that were hanging around as he was dying for their sin. He was telling them as their Rabbi, "Go look and find this passage and read what it says about this death that you are right now in your life witnessing before your very eyes. In their very hearing would be how Jesus would have put it

So, I don't believe that God did forsake His Son. But I do believe that God caused to be written some hundreds of years before the event, those words found in psalm 22. I further believe that just as Jesus' purpose in quoting the words of Isaiah to that fellowship of Jewish believers in Nazareth when he began his ministry as a testimony to them to watch and see, that he also spoke the words of this psalm telling them to watch and see.

God bless you all,
Ted
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Look

“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? ….But I am a worm, and no man; A reproach of men, and despised of the people.

… All they that see me laugh me to scorn: They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: Let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.


For dogs have compassed me: The assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: They pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: They look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, And cast lots upon my vesture.

I will declare thy name unto my brethren: In the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭22:1, 6-8, 16-18, 22‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?….

“And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭15:34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“they that see me laugh me to scorn: They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: Let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. “

“And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“They pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: They look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, And cast lots upon my vesture.”


“And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s a fulfillment of prophecy he’s quoting a messianic psalm written about himself he’s essentially saying I’m the messiah the ot promised

“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:13‬ ‭
 
B

bluto

Senior Member
#22
Aug 4, 2016
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#22
tedincarolina said:
Hi @bluto

Just a point of order, but you shouldn't append your messages within the confines of someone's quote. It doesn't show when someone looks at your response without having to read through all of the original quote. It's much better for all to quote and then add your response after the closed quote.
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B

bluto

Senior Member
#23
Aug 4, 2016
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#23
Your right. I posted it before having my morning coffee. My mistake.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
D

decipher

Member
#24
Jul 15, 2024
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#24
Hi Paul. Thanks for trying to answer my questions. I appreciate your honest reply. The approach that I've taken in my research is from a rational perspective. For example, if God can create out of nothing, has always existed even before creation, knows all things including the present, past, and future of humanity, can do all things, etc., then our reality must be in the mind of the Father (who is the invisible God). The invisible God creates different realities and He interacts with each reality through His Holy Spirit. In Isaiah 63: 9-10, Isaiah identifies the Holy Spirit as the "angel of His presence". That means that where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is. He is identified as an angel because the Holy Spirit can be sent. Also, the Holy Spirit does not speak his own words. That kind of makes me think that maybe the Holy Spirit is not a living, thinking being but a portal through which the Father can communicate with, speak through, and empower individuals indwelt. It seems to me that in our reality the Father first placed a consciousness in it different from His. As the first consciousness from the Father in our reality, he is referred to as the Son of God. The Father fills his Son with His Holy Spirit which makes the Son the Temple of the Father. The Father is in the Son, and the Son is in the Father because the Son sits on the Father's right hand. That would mean that the Son does the will of the Father. Together, the invisible God the Father through the Father's Holy Spirit in the visible Son Christ (or Jehovah) created our reality. The Father created our reality for His Son because all things created were placed underneath the Son's feet by the Father. That would make the Son Lord and God of all creation, but the Father is the God and Father of all, including His Son. This perspective makes most of the verses and concepts in the Bible make sense.
 
T

tedincarolina

Active member
#25
Jul 25, 2024
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#25
Omegatime said:
IMO If you believe Jesus was " God with us " then what was he teaching?? Maybe like an event in the future!
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Hi @Omegatime

He was teaching what God's word had already told them about the death that they were witnessing. Psalm 22 lays out several of the events that occurred on that day as Jesus hung on the cross.

As I explained, Jesus opened his ministry, the very first teaching that we have from him, was in a synagogue in Nazareth where he read the passage in Isaiah that is the greatest passage in all of Scripture to tell us the things that the Messiah would do while he was with us. Then he went out and lived it for some 3+ years. He then closed his ministry to us with a teaching from the greatest passage in all of the Scriptures that describes the death and punishment that the Messiah would receive at the hands of men.

Both passages, each one being the greatest passages in all of the Scriptures that discussed the matter of 'what' the Messiah would be doing among the people, and 'what' the Messiah would be doing upon his death.

I'm not actually sure what his being called Emmanuel has to do with the matter. Whether or not he was or wasn't God with us, what he was teaching seems fairly plain. Do you not agree that Jesus' words spoken to that gathered group of Jews in that Nazareth synagogue was telling them that they were witnessing the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy? I believe that if you read Psalm 22, you'll also find that his words were also referencing a passage of Messiah's death that he was also fulfilling. Also, from the prophet Isaiah's writings.
 
J

John146

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#26
Jan 13, 2016
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#26
decipher said:
Why does Jesus ask why? Why does Jesus refer to his Father as his God when according to the Trinity, Jesus is already God? God is a rational God, and is not a God of confusion. Anything irrational must be man-made. I'm trying to understand.
In your answer to my post, are you saying that at the moment of Jesus' death, he became a sinner? And that is why God the Father forsook himself?
Also, it seems to me that if the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three different minds that make up the one God, if they were to exist separately (which they seem to be as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), then they must be three different beings. I'm trying to be rational and understand.
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At the point of becoming sin for us, the fellowship of Father-Son had been lost. Jesus was no longer the spotless Lamb of God. Christ was alone. Jesus is showing his humanity.
 
J

John146

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#27
Jan 13, 2016
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#27
tedincarolina said:
Hi @John146

While that is a solid defense, I'm not convicted that it is so. What happened to the sin that Jesus was carrying? Did it fall off when he died? I mean, God did then raise His Son from the dead. What happened to all that sin that he was carrying when he was on the cross?
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His blood was the sacrifice. I don't have enough time right now to type everything out, but I believe as the OT goat carried the sins of the people off into the wilderness, so too was our sins deposited in hell by the Lord after his death.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#28
Jan 13, 2016
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#28
John146 said:
At the point of becoming sin for us, the fellowship of Father-Son had been lost. Jesus was no longer the spotless Lamb of God. Christ was alone. Jesus is showing his humanity.
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Yes, Jesus knew the prophets, and was afraid of what lied ahead of him. Not only did he know of the physical suffering, but even worse, our sins placed upon his body and his Father forsaking him (which is far worse than the physical pain).
 
T

tedincarolina

Active member
#29
Jul 25, 2024
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#29
John146 said:
His blood was the sacrifice. I don't have enough time right now to type everything out, but I believe as the OT goat carried the sins of the people off into the wilderness, so too was our sins deposited in hell by the Lord after his death.
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Hi @John146

So, your position is that as soon as Jesus had died from the loss of his blood, he was no longer seen as covered in sin by God. Would that be the correct understanding from your post? So, Jesus was forsaken of God for what? 10 minutes? 20 minutes? I mean the Scriptures make a point that he died fairly quickly after having said those words. Likely may have only been for 2 minutes.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#30
Sep 23, 2014
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#30
John146 said:
At the point of becoming sin for us, the fellowship of Father-Son had been lost. Jesus was no longer the spotless Lamb of God. Christ was alone. Jesus is showing his humanity.
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Jesus embodied all the holiness of the law and absorbed all the ungodliness of those under the law and, together, both of these were sacrificed completely in Christ, the blood that ratified the new covenant.
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

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#31
Sep 4, 2013
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#31
decipher said:
Why does Jesus ask why? Why does Jesus refer to his Father as his God when according to the Trinity, Jesus is already God? God is a rational God, and is not a God of confusion. Anything irrational must be man-made. I'm trying to understand.
In your answer to my post, are you saying that at the moment of Jesus' death, he became a sinner? And that is why God the Father forsook himself?
Also, it seems to me that if the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three different minds that make up the one God, if they were to exist separately (which they seem to be as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), then they must be three different beings. I'm trying to be rational and understand.
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While here on earth, Jesus was both fully man and fully God. On the cross, Jesus the man gave his life as payment for the sins of the world. The flesh died. The flesh Jesus cried out because God the Father can not look upon sin. Jesus the man took the sins of the world upon himself and this is why God the Father turned his eyes away from Jesus.

Jesus, God the Son, was fully God, and his resurrection affirmed that!

People need to not "add to" Scripture as does the OP. There is a clear warning about doing this in Revelations.

As for the Trinity, once again:

God the Father.................God OF man. God the Father desired a personal relationship with His people, but this could not be achieved as He is for mankind would die if they looked upon His face.

God the Son.................God AS man. Thus, God took upon himself the form of man in the being of Jesus and walked and talked and laid out his salvation plan in his Gospel. And he willingly gave his life as payment for the sins of all mankind. However, only those who "believed" had their sins forgiven, because that is how salvation works.

God the Holy Ghost................God WITHIN man. The Holy Ghost was sent to man to be teacher, counselor, protector, and giver of Spiritual Gifts to those who believed. His indwelling presence within sanctified believers allows them to become mature believers with a spiritual understanding of Scripture, and not just saved believers who have to be fed with milk as the Apostle Paul taught.

The Holy Trinity denied is to deny the Deity of Jesus and the existence of the Holy Ghost. Proof of the truth of the Trinity is clearly defined in the Gospel of John.

As for God the Father forsaking God the Son; He was not turning his eyes from Jesus but from the sin Jesus had took upon himself. Jesus in the flesh suffered ALL the pain of mankind on the cross, so it is no wonder that Jesus the man cried out in his pain.
 
O

Omegatime

Well-known member
#32
Apr 29, 2023
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#32
Hi tedincarolina

You said: I'm not actually sure what his being called Emmanuel has to do with the matter.

This has everything to do with event!
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
#33
Sep 2, 2020
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#33
John146 said:
At the point of becoming sin for us, the fellowship of Father-Son had been lost. Jesus was no longer the spotless Lamb of God. Christ was alone. Jesus is showing his humanity.
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It’s always helpful to find what each person in nt scripture was saying about each subject a statement like this shouldn’t be taken in a vaccune is what I mean but integrated with the rest

For instance

“For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;

that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We should always let that concept grow and be clarified ect so we hear Peter for example who puts the same concept this way hearkening us back to isaiah 53 where the concept began to be disclosed to mankind in prophecy

this wording

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;

that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

becomes this wording

“who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree,

that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness:

by whose stripes ye were healed.”( Isaiah 53)
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So now understanding they are talking about this ancient concept coming from Gods word beforehand

“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way;

and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This begins to become an integrated understanding as we expand our acceptance of what’s really there in scripture and it becomes a network of understanding and details regarding Jesus Christ Our Lord and his eternal kingdom found in believing the gospel

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And then this single concept goes from “ jesus eas made son so he’s not spotless now “ and becomes more like Paul summarizes there Jesus the spotless and pure lamb without sin , died for all of our sins, for all of our spots . And he is spotless still which is why he was able to rise up. A spotted sinner can’t do that , sin brings death , jesus has no sin therefore death has no legal claim upon him he did it willingly for us because we couldn’t rise up being sinners

now he died for our sins ……and this understanding then becomes a brick we can put in place and then talk about until we grasp the roots and better understanding of other concepts that connect to his death formoir sins like , his resurrection for our justification this also is the same everything has roots and a consistent theme and makes sense
 
B

bluto

Senior Member
#34
Aug 4, 2016
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#34
tedincarolina said:
Hi @bluto

Just a point of order, but you shouldn't append your messages within the confines of someone's quote. It doesn't show when someone looks at your response without having to read through all of the original quote. It's much better for all to quote and then add your response after the closed quote.
Click to expand...
 
B

bluto

Senior Member
#35
Aug 4, 2016
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#35
The answer is an emphatic NO. Let me first say from Isaiah 53:4, "Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted."
Christ was clearly considered "accursed" in the eyes of humanity, particularly the Jewish nation, and yet He ever remained the holy Son with whom the Father was well pleased." (Mark 1:11, Matthew 3:17 and Luke 3:22.)

Regarding Psalm 22:1, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me." Here, Jesus was merely quoting the first line of Psalm 22 to show the spectators that His crucifixion had been prophesied by David thousands of years earlier, and that He was, in fact the "suffering Servant" that had been promised by the Old Testament prophets.
What's interesting is the fact that David's immediate reason for writing them was to describe his own feelings of forsakenness while he was being hunted down and persecuted by King Saul. Note what he says in the last part of vs1, "Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning."

David was complaining that God had left him and in his plea, vs10, he says, "Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb."
David continues to explain his plight when at vs12 many, "Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me." Vs14, "I am poured out like water." Vs16, "For the dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and feet." (sound familiar?)

Finally, at verses 22-25 David praises the Lord. Just as God did not turn away from David in his distress, neither did He turn away from His own begotten Son. I remember many, many years ago it was said that God cannot look upon sin.
2 Corinthians 5:21 was used to support that opinion. "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." What was not quoted was verse was 2 Corinthians 5:19, "namely, THAT GOD WAS IN CHRIST reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation."

Lastly, the following verse seals the deal that God the Father did not abandon or forsake His Son. The word of Jesus Christ Himself at John 16:32, "Behold, an hour is coming and has already come for you to be scattered each to his own home, and to leave Me alone; AND YET I AM NOT ALONE, BECAUSE THE FATHER IS WITH ME."

IN GOD THE SON, PS: Hope this helps!
bluto
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#36
Jan 13, 2016
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#36
tedincarolina said:
Hi @John146

So, your position is that as soon as Jesus had died from the loss of his blood, he was no longer seen as covered in sin by God. Would that be the correct understanding from your post? So, Jesus was forsaken of God for what? 10 minutes? 20 minutes? I mean the Scriptures make a point that he died fairly quickly after having said those words. Likely may have only been for 2 minutes.
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It is finished. I believe the sins of the world were placed upon him at 12pm and for three hours darkness covered the earth until he died at 3pm.
 
Jeremy1973

Jeremy1973

Banned
#37
Jul 26, 2024
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#37
Christ was quoting the 22nd Psalm which states; "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?"

Many claim He quoted the whole passage ending in "They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this." (It is finished).
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#38
Jul 18, 2017
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#38
tedincarolina said:
For many years I wondered about these words that Jesus spoke. Why would God forsake His Son for doing exactly what he was supposed to do.
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That was not the reason. Sin separated mankind from God, and leads to the Second Death. Which is TOTAL separation from God.

But Christ took ALL the sins and guilt of humanity upon Himself and paid the FULL PENALTY for sin. Therefore He was forsaken for three dark hours while He suffered in His soul and spirit.

But in the end the redemptive work on the cross was finished, so Christ gave a victory shout: "IT IS FINISHED". And because it was finished, He rose again from the dead after three days and three nights. In those three days and three nights He proclaimed His victory over sin, death, Hades, Hell, and Satan. Therefore God now offers the free gift of eternal life to all who believe on Him.

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. So Christ also shed His precious blood, and suffered in His body like no man has suffered. Isaiah 33 gives us a glimpse of what happened while Christ made Himself an offering for sin.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#39
Jul 18, 2017
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#39
Jeremy1973 said:
Many claim He quoted the whole passage ending in "They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this." (It is finished).
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If that were true it would have been recorded in Scripture.
 
T

tedincarolina

Active member
#40
Jul 25, 2024
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#40
John146 said:
It is finished. I believe the sins of the world were placed upon him at 12pm and for three hours darkness covered the earth until he died at 3pm.
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Hi @John146

So, when were the sins place on Jesus? Was it as they drove the first spike through his palm? Was it when they lifted up the cross beam onto the upright? Was it when he cried out, "It is finished"?
 
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