What Changed?

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BillyBob

BillyBob

Active member
#21
Dec 20, 2023
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#21
Ballaurena said:
First off, I'm setting aside any possible contentions over some of your statements (which I addressed above).

What changed for me? Hmm....It's complicated.

I guess I became aware of my selfishness and sin-proneness and wanted help to be better, and forgiveness for my failures. It wasn't one event but a series of things - An addiction to a hateful fantasy. A speech at school that explained love. An apparently selfless act by a sibling that I was used to contending with that startled me out of complacency. Natural questioning of what one has been taught that arise around the age of 13.

There was one big thing in my childhood denomination announcing huge doctrinal changes and consequently splintering into multiple pieces, but the developmental context this experience happened in was just as significant.

No, I didn't overcome the mental addiction. In truth I didn't even really understand forgiveness. Rather I went from seeing a God that damned you if you did and damned you if you didn't, to one that actually had a right answer He was looking for, though it was still an impossible target, just not so obviously so. It wasn't till much later that all of these things got resolved, but my decision to follow Jesus back then had put me on the path to get there eventually on all of this. Of note, it first required learning of the gifts of the spirit before God had a sufficient means to get me there.
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Ballaurena, thank you very much for your reply. You are correct, my initial post did not mean to put anyone on edge by the statement assuming you are a child of God. It may have been a little confusing but that was not my intention. The point of the thread was to say that we are all conceived in sin and when we turn to Christ in faith, something must change.

The, story that you told leads me to believe that you have come to faith and are still growing in faith day by day. God bless you and keep you!
 
Jimbone

Jimbone

Senior Member
#22
Aug 22, 2014
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#22
PaulThomson said:
Your false indignation is unpersuasive.

You have been a member of this forum since 2014. In the case of every verse you cited, you have already seen the eisegesis of the original sin doctrine into them refuted. And yet you bring up the same tired and failed proof-texts for total depravity yet again pretending they undubitably teach original sin/Total Depravity and pretending you have never seen any refutation to the claims you make about them.

Psalms 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

This verse does not say
Psalms 58:3
The wicked are estranged in the womb; they go astray at birth, speaking lies.

No child in the womb is speaking lies. No child at birth is speaking lies. It is absolute nonsense to read total depravity and original sin into this verse.

Ropm. 9:11 Esau and Jacob in the womb had done neither good or evil. They had not yet sinned. They had not spoken lies in the womb.
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Didn't see one verse that says we are born sinless. A very blind position to have when you've been born again. or born of the spirit, and KNOW the truth. You know the thing that is repaired by Jesus righteousness, applied to us when we are born again, and can be justly because He took our punishment on the cross when God poured out His wrath on Him. The very thing we are born without, the thing that disconnects us from God, the thing that even the baby in the womb cannot have? It's weird to be confronted on this by a supposed believer. The idea that we are "born good" is anti-Christ and completely untrue. The fact it offends you so much doesn't point to good things about your status, because those of us born again are led to all truth by His Spirit, and the truth is that even the fertilized egg is born spiritually dead and disconnected from God. This is just the truth and what you're saying is a lie. Don't know how else to talk about truth to someone blind to it. Again not 1 verse that says we are not born disconnected from Him, not even the verses you tried to force to seem like they do. IT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF NEEDING TO BE SAVED!!!!!!!!!
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#23
Jul 31, 2013
37,843
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#23
Eli1 said:
Maybe an event can be considered a starting point from our point of view, but when you think about it is it God who lays the framework for our faith and it's up to us to react to it with limited free-will.
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2 Kings 6:5-7​
But as one was cutting down a tree, the iron [ax head] fell into the water; and he cried out and said, ​
"Alas, master! For it was borrowed." ​
So the man of God said, ​
"Where did it fall?" ​
And he showed him the place. So he cut off a stick, and threw [it] in there; and he made the iron float. Therefore he said, ​
"Pick [it] up for yourself." ​
So he reached out his hand and took it.​
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#24
May 23, 2012
13,058
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#24
BillyBob said:
What Changed?
Assuming that you are a child of God, What was the event that resulted in this change?
All people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin; without the grace of the regenerating Holy Spirit they are neither willing nor able to return to God, to reform their distorted nature, or even to dispose themselves to such reform.

Something had to change
Did you overcome this condition in your own strength, or were you drawn to Christ by the power of the Spirit? If you were drawn, were you able to resist being drawn?
Click to expand...

The day one was born again, Christ came to live in that person. YET, the flesh is not saved. Even with Christ in you, you will still die a physical death. That death of the body is because of sin. Yet Those in Christ have faith in the resurrection. Because Christ Lives, we shall live also. While living this life, we are in the sanctification process, where we renew our minds with the word of God and allow the fruits of the Spirit to grow and become mature in our lives. We are a New Creature in Christ Jesus, Yet who Christ as Set free is free; indeed, you have the freedom to return to your past sins. The battle of the mind is won in faith and by the word of God Through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#25
Jul 31, 2013
37,843
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#25
posthuman said:
2 Kings 6:5-7​
But as one was cutting down a tree, the iron [ax head] fell into the water; and he cried out and said, ​
"Alas, master! For it was borrowed." ​
So the man of God said, ​
"Where did it fall?" ​
And he showed him the place. So he cut off a stick, and threw [it] in there; and he made the iron float. Therefore he said, ​
"Pick [it] up for yourself." ​
So he reached out his hand and took it.​
Click to expand...
why did he have to pick up the axe? why didn't The Man of God float it out of the water and into his hands?

if he hadn't picked up the axe, would it have sank again?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#26
Mar 1, 2022
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#26
posthuman said:
why did he have to pick up the axe? why didn't The Man of God float it out of the water and into his hands?

if he hadn't picked up the axe, would it have sank again?
Click to expand...
The just shall walk by faith.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#27
Oct 29, 2023
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#27
Jimbone said:
Oh my goodness the fact you don't understand this concept is worrying. So there are some born sinless in your mind?
How many are born Righteous according to His word?
Psalms 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Did you never read this?
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What made you assume that I do not understand the concept of original sin? Was it that I don't agree with the concept, because you assume that understanding it will automatically lead to acceptance and profession of it? Maybe the concept is unbiblical


You cite Ps. 51:5.

I was conceived in a hotel room and born in a hospital. But I assure you there has been no hotel room in me since I was conceived; nor any hospital in me since I was born. The psalmist stating the environment in which he was conceived and born, does not imply that everyone is conceived and born in that environment, nor that everyone was conceived and born with that environment inside them.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#28
Oct 29, 2023
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#28
Ballaurena said:
While some of these statements are on shaky ground that is probably based in traditions from questionable logic (ex. Extrapolating an individual case to all), some conceptually look to be in the Bible, whether or not they are point blank stated.
Example:



And unless something was edited, you seem to have misunderstood the writing device used by BillyBob in saying,

Such a statement means that what follows applies ONLY if the reader is indeed a follower of God, and suggests that such a state is likely but not certain since this is a Christian website. But as you see, that is a lot more complicated to explain this way, and a lot less artful.


Also, while I applaud your willingness to point-out unfounded assumptions, the tone you did it in seemed lacking in respect for a brother in Christ, especially in replying to a post that itself felt unifying in intent.
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The OP was not intended to be unifying. It was asserting Total Depravity and was challenging readers to come up with an alternative explanation for conversion other than Irresistible Grace. The assertions made in the OP came from lazy eisegesis. I have already pointed out why two of the prooftexts do not support original sin. I am not holding my breath waitimg for concessions that those texts do not support it.
 
A

Adstar

Senior Member
#29
Jul 24, 2016
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#29
BillyBob said:
What Changed?
Assuming that you are a child of God, What was the event that resulted in this change?
All people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin; without the grace of the regenerating Holy Spirit they are neither willing nor able to return to God, to reform their distorted nature, or even to dispose themselves to such reform.

Something had to change
Did you overcome this condition in your own strength, or were you drawn to Christ by the power of the Spirit? If you were drawn, were you able to resist being drawn?
Click to expand...
The Holy Spirit acts upon the conscience of a person.. Acting to move them to the right relationahip positon with God..

Some people persist in resisting the Holy Spirit.. In these cases the Holy Spirit will eventually withdraw..

Some people resist the Spirit for a time but eventually the conviction is too much for them and they accept the leading of the LORD..

And then there are those who are humble and the Holy Spirit moves them easy into the right relationship with the LORD..
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#30
Feb 17, 2024
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#30
PaulThomson said:
You start by assuming your reader is "a child of God."

Then you add a bunch more assumptions"
1. ALL people are conceived in sin.
2. ALL children are born children of wrath.
3. ALL are born unfit for any saving good.
4. ALL are born inclined to evil.
5. ALL are born dead in their sins.
6. ALL are born slaves to sin.

These assumptions are not stated in the Bible. What would be the point of anyone being willing to assume them in order to respond to this thread?
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Pray tell, sir, what are the "assumptions...stated in the Bible" with respect to man's nature, heart and moral proclivities?
 
Lafftur

Lafftur

Senior Member
#31
Apr 18, 2017
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#31
BillyBob said:
What Changed?
Assuming that you are a child of God, What was the event that resulted in this change?
All people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin; without the grace of the regenerating Holy Spirit they are neither willing nor able to return to God, to reform their distorted nature, or even to dispose themselves to such reform.

Something had to change
Did you overcome this condition in your own strength, or were you drawn to Christ by the power of the Spirit? If you were drawn, were you able to resist being drawn?
Click to expand...
Ownership. I no longer belong to the god of this world under Adam.

I now belong to Jesus Christ ALONE. I am my Beloved and He is mine. :love:(y)
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#32
Jul 18, 2017
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#32
BillyBob said:
All people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin; without the grace of the regenerating Holy Spirit they are neither willing nor able to return to God, to reform their distorted nature, or even to dispose themselves to such reform.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a modified version of the Reformed Westminster Confession of Faith. And it is totally misleading.

As to being able to resist the Holy Spirit, the answer is found in Scripture. Yes, people resist the Holy Spirit all the time. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. (Acts 7:51)
 
B

Burn1986

Active member
#33
Mar 4, 2024
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#33
BillyBob said:
What Changed?
Assuming that you are a child of God, What was the event that resulted in this change?
All people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin; without the grace of the regenerating Holy Spirit they are neither willing nor able to return to God, to reform their distorted nature, or even to dispose themselves to such reform.

Something had to change
Did you overcome this condition in your own strength, or were you drawn to Christ by the power of the Spirit? If you were drawn, were you able to resist being drawn?
Click to expand...
What really happened before I was born?
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#34
Feb 17, 2024
2,438
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#34
Nehemiah6 said:
Sounds like a modified version of the Reformed Westminster Confession of Faith. And it is totally misleading.

As to being able to resist the Holy Spirit, the answer is found in Scripture. Yes, people resist the Holy Spirit all the time. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. (Acts 7:51)
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On the other hand, there is this promise written into the New Covenant:

Ezek 36:24-27
24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands, and bring you into your own land. 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
NASB

Sounds like Effectual Grace to me.

And how did resisting the Holy Spirit work out for Pharaoh when God "came down" to rescue his helpless firstborn from evil king's clutches?
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#35
Feb 17, 2024
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#35
PaulThomson said:
What made you assume that I do not understand the concept of original sin? Was it that I don't agree with the concept, because you assume that understanding it will automatically lead to acceptance and profession of it? Maybe the concept is unbiblical


You cite Ps. 51:5.

I was conceived in a hotel room and born in a hospital. But I assure you there has been no hotel room in me since I was conceived; nor any hospital in me since I was born. The psalmist stating the environment in which he was conceived and born, does not imply that everyone is conceived and born in that environment, nor that everyone was conceived and born with that environment inside them.
Click to expand...
Then the onus is on you to show from scripture the moral-spiritual environment in which the rest of the world was born.
 
Blade

Blade

Well-known member
#37
Nov 19, 2019
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#37
BillyBob said:
What Changed?
Assuming that you are a child of God, What was the event that resulted in this change?
All people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin; without the grace of the regenerating Holy Spirit they are neither willing nor able to return to God, to reform their distorted nature, or even to dispose themselves to such reform.

Something had to change
Did you overcome this condition in your own strength, or were you drawn to Christ by the power of the Spirit? If you were drawn, were you able to resist being drawn?
Click to expand...
Hey BillyBob. I can only speak for me and what I have experienced. It was at 15 or so when I was asked in a bible study if I wanted the holy Spirit something I knew nothing about. See I know John B said he baptised with water but there is one coming from among you He will baptise you with the holy spirit. It was right after he prayed said "that's it you got it". See they two grand parents just believed if God said it He will do it. It was like plugging into this power, this love this peace that never ends... oh praise GOD glory glory glory to Jesus.

Some of my struggle is seeing me as He does. I know yet I don't the Father sees me through what Christ has already done. I am in right standing with God based on what Christ has done. My sin that old man was taken to the cross and died and the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness is what I am now. I truly believe we can know what is written yet we do not know and truly understand. My struggle is always seeing the old man. Not to boast and only in Him, all I have seen and heard I still see the old man which is not me and He does not see any more. My sin was taken to the cross yet I still see it. He comes back with asking me what is righteousness and then asks who do you get righteousness. Trying to get me to see as He does.

I can quote you about sin and as you said slaves to sin we are not yet I am convinced most believers do not understand that (me also). The sweet holy Spirit by Paul I understand its no longer I that sin by sin that is in me. How can I be a sinner yet I was set free no longer a slave to sin I am a new creation, I put off the old man and put on the new. So which am I? I can not be both.

Anyway who we came to Christ and then raised really can define what and how we believe. I always told Him I don't want to believe in you because someone said this or that. To blindly believe walk by faith live by faith oh YES praise GOD. But I know what He has done for one He will do for all aka me. I do not want to believe the Father sent Christ and believe He came died rose just to get in.. I want to know Him. That comes at a huge price for no one has left all for Him no one. Its hard to except that no matter what I do good or bad it is will always be Him alone. Every good thing that happens in this world is because of Him. Every good thought I have, every good work I have and do and will do is only because of Him.

I love love love music and one of the countless I hold on to is by Larnelle Harris.. part is
So many questions
I must ask myself today
Or what will I leave behind
When life has passed my way
Will people remember my name
Or forget me all the same
Will I leave a trace of my Jesus somewhere

Have I been a light in dark places
Brought a smile to sad faces
Have I shown the world that I really care
Have I lived my life the way
He wants me to each and every day
When someone stumbled, was I there
 
JohnDB

JohnDB

Well-known member
#38
Jan 16, 2021
6,219
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#38
Lafftur said:
Ownership. I no longer belong to the god of this world under Adam.

I now belong to Jesus Christ ALONE. I am my Beloved and He is mine. :love:(y)
Click to expand...
Well...
Jesus was the Second Adam. (Read it in Hebrews I think)
 
BillyBob

BillyBob

Active member
#40
Dec 20, 2023
404
173
43
Texas
#40
Blade said:
Hey BillyBob. I can only speak for me and what I have experienced. It was at 15 or so when I was asked in a bible study if I wanted the holy Spirit something I knew nothing about. See I know John B said he baptised with water but there is one coming from among you He will baptise you with the holy spirit. It was right after he prayed said "that's it you got it". See they two grand parents just believed if God said it He will do it. It was like plugging into this power, this love this peace that never ends... oh praise GOD glory glory glory to Jesus.

Some of my struggle is seeing me as He does. I know yet I don't the Father sees me through what Christ has already done. I am in right standing with God based on what Christ has done. My sin that old man was taken to the cross and died and the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness is what I am now. I truly believe we can know what is written yet we do not know and truly understand. My struggle is always seeing the old man. Not to boast and only in Him, all I have seen and heard I still see the old man which is not me and He does not see any more. My sin was taken to the cross yet I still see it. He comes back with asking me what is righteousness and then asks who do you get righteousness. Trying to get me to see as He does.

I can quote you about sin and as you said slaves to sin we are not yet I am convinced most believers do not understand that (me also). The sweet holy Spirit by Paul I understand its no longer I that sin by sin that is in me. How can I be a sinner yet I was set free no longer a slave to sin I am a new creation, I put off the old man and put on the new. So which am I? I can not be both.

Anyway who we came to Christ and then raised really can define what and how we believe. I always told Him I don't want to believe in you because someone said this or that. To blindly believe walk by faith live by faith oh YES praise GOD. But I know what He has done for one He will do for all aka me. I do not want to believe the Father sent Christ and believe He came died rose just to get in.. I want to know Him. That comes at a huge price for no one has left all for Him no one. Its hard to except that no matter what I do good or bad it is will always be Him alone. Every good thing that happens in this world is because of Him. Every good thought I have, every good work I have and do and will do is only because of Him.

I love love love music and one of the countless I hold on to is by Larnelle Harris.. part is
So many questions
I must ask myself today
Or what will I leave behind
When life has passed my way
Will people remember my name
Or forget me all the same
Will I leave a trace of my Jesus somewhere

Have I been a light in dark places
Brought a smile to sad faces
Have I shown the world that I really care
Have I lived my life the way
He wants me to each and every day
When someone stumbled, was I there
Click to expand...
Blade,
There is no doubt in my mind that God has poured His spirit out onto you. You confess that your sins have been placed on Christ and He has paid the awful price for your forgiveness! When we believe this, then we are forgiven in Christ.
That does not mean that we are no longer tempted. I believe the old man is allowed to temp us. However, by God's grace, we will stand firm to the end.
You are remembered! I will hold your words in my heart as I pray for God to strengthen you in every way!
 
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