God`s Appointed Time for the Rapture.

Hi DW,

Although I agree with you concerning 2 Thess. you may want to check out the prophet Joel who tells us what actually starts the Day of the LORD God in judgment.

`Blow a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; for the Day of the LORD is coming, for it is at hand: a Day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, like the morning clouds spread over the mountains, a people come, great and strong, the like of whom has never been; nor will there ever be any such after them, even for many successive generations.` (Joel 2: 1 & 2)



This is what we will SEE approaching the Day of the LORD - the Russian Federation and others coming down to the Golan Heights in Israel where God will judge them. The prophet Ezekiel also has details of this time. (Ez. 38 & 39)

If you look at my first diagram you will see -

I also just take 2thes ch 2 as it is plainly stated, I obviously aint no scholar, so I just read scripture like a 10yr old which is probably about my reading lvl, and apply basic understanding to the verses.

Now brethren concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (do not stop reading here or one will pervert the context, if I stop reading here I will think its talking about the second coming, but keep reading for context) and our gathering together to Him, we ask you. (I bolded that litlle thing called a conjunction)

What we are concerned about or talking about in verse 1 simply stated is the gathering to Him/rapture/departure.

:2 "we ask you not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come"

At the end of the first letter to the Thessalonians they are told about the day of the Lord, as though it is labour pains, and the day of Lord coming like a thief in the night, so many Old Testament passages talk about the day of the Lord and the darkness of it. Also the rapture and us being sons of the day not of the night, and how the Thessalonians (and us) are not appointed to wrath or the day of destruction.

Seems a simple thing to me that the day of the Lord can be about the Messianic kingdom but Israel's birth must have labour pains to kick it off (I've probably opened a can of worms here haha)

So there is also the terrible day, the day of Darkness, the day of Jacobs trouble, the day of destruction, the day of Christ and I don't know how but those in Thessalonica seemed to come to the conclusion they are now in this day, well to be fair they only had the one letter, but it was clearly stated they were not appointed to wrath. they were of the day not the night etcetera

Anyway this false assumption is being corrected in the second letter to the Thessalonians its being reaffirmed that they are not already in that day and are given even more reasons why they are not already in that day of darkness or missed the departure, namely the revealing of the lawless one.

:3 "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling(departure) away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.

No comments needed just believe it like it says, I reckon.

Right!

Agreed! (with your entire post)







One tiny note I'll make on this part, where you said:

Right!

And I'm always pointing out how Paul is saying here (in 1Th5:1-3) that "the day of the Lord" will ARRIVE "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman [and "SUDDENLY"]--He is zeroing in on the FIRST "PANG" [He uses the "SINGULAR"] MENTIONED in Jesus' reference to "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]"...

... which FIRST ONE is found in "Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 - tis - G5100 ['A CERTAIN ONE'--'a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION]" (which IS "SEAL #1" at the START of the "7 year period"--The rider on the white horse WITH A "BOW" ['bow' often meaning 'DECEPTION']... which corresponds with 2Th2:9-10a[,3b,6,8a]... which corresponds with Dan11:36a... which corresponds with Dan9:27a[,26b]... etc... ALL OF THESE being at the STARTING-POINT of the "7 year period" [and all FOLLOWING "our Rapture"]).

When that is stated as "the day of the LORD" (see other translations) then it no longer applies to "the day of Christ" (which is for the Rapture). The day of the LORD must come after the day of Christ.

Some were teaching that the day of the LORD had already come (divine judgements and wrath) with no proof. Thus the Thessalonians were troubled. How could that be when they expected the Rapture even in their own lifetimes? So then Paul explains that the day of the Lord will follow the reign of the Antichrist (as shown in Revelation). This passage is not related to the Rapture.

Hi Marilyn,

Thank you for your comment. I had seen and taken note of your OP and other posts in this thread. My view only differs slightly, so this is why I hadn't commented on the content of your OP.

How I see the phrase "the Day of the Lord" in the OT is that it sometimes refers to "this or that ASPECT OF" the DOTL time period, context determining which...

So where you believe Joel 2 is saying that "the DOTL" STARTS with this particular war, I see vv.1-2a as sort of a "heading" to the chapter, and then the rest of the chapter naming things that will take place within that time period (v.2b etc).

I've made past posts showing why I believe the Gog-Magog War (Ezek38-39) is part of the "2nd SEAL 'Wars'"--showing how what is said of Joseph in Gen45:1 ("... there STOOD NO MAN with him, while Joseph MADE HIMSELF KNOWN unto his brethren") is parallel language to what we read in Ezek39:7a (I believe Seal #2 will be EARLY in the trib, just as this incident with Joseph took place in the second year of his "7 year famine," when there were "yet 5 years" remaining Gen45:6).

Another point I could add on that:
Notice how the following passage shows/cross-references with your Joel 2:1-11 passage...

Amos 7 -
The Locusts, Fire, and Plumb Line
(Joel 2:1–11)
1This is what the Lord GOD showed me: He was preparing swarms of locusts just after the king’s harvest [/after the king's mowings], as the late spring crop was coming up.a 2And when the locusts had eaten every green plant in the land, I said, “Lord GOD, please forgive! How will Jacob survive, since he is so small?”

I believe this phrase (in GREEN) is a TIMING-INDICATOR... if you catch my drift, here.

I can try to elaborate more, at another time. For now, I must sign off for the night.



One other small point, is that I see in Paul's 2Th2 passage, that he REPEATS the SEQUENCE *THREE TIMES*--a "movement/relocation" then "the man of sin be revealed" (3x THIS SEQUENCE is repeated, in his words). And the reason I point this out, is that, in one of those, Paul uses the phrase "AND THEN [kai tote]" which I studied at length (years ago) and saw that it really isn't used to refer to a very lengthy span of time at all, but more like (the effect of) "and consequently" or "and on the heels of that" or "and as a result"... kind of like that. So I don't see a "gap of time" between OUR "movement/relocation" (i.e. "THE Departure" of US) and when "the man of sin BE REVEALED" (which I believe is SEAL #1... and all the other correlations OF HIM I listed in my previous post, to Clayman).




Thank you for the conversation. I'm enjoying it.

I do see them as fairly "lock-step"... They RUN concurrently, as in, WE GO UP and immediately "the day of the Lord" (earthly time period of Judgments) unfolds upon the earth, commencing with "the man of sin be revealed" (i.e. Seal #1)... Hence the reason for the "SNATCH [G726]"! and the wording of: "the One delivering us out-from THE WRATH COMING" 1Th1:10







[I'm one who also sees "the man child" / "the male [G730]" in Rev12 to be referring to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" corporately (many scholars do as well)... and in that passage, the dragon is ready to pounce on ['devour'] this "as soon as it was born" (v.4)--Note, I'm NOT saying the "born" thing happens at MID-trib... v.13 says, "[the woman] which HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730]" (i.e. at an EARLIER time from this mid-trib CONTEXT)... I believe this corresponds with what we see written also in Micah 5:3 (whereas 5:2 was about Jesus' OWN BIRTH--verse 3 is not)]



Good night, all!

If you are suggesting that the saints are in Heaven while the day of the Lord is on earth, I would agree. But the Rapture and the Sceond Coming cannot be simultaneous.

Yes. Because "the DOTL" STARTS *when* the TRIB starts (the TRIB yrs is its first leg of the duration of it, so to speak).



What most "mis-understand" is that "the Day of the Lord" ARRIVES / STARTS *when* the "whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PAROUSIA" of the man of sin does (when he is "revealed"--which is at "SEAL #1, not at "mid-trib"), corresponding to both Dan11:36a (regime-change language) and Dan9:27a[,26b "prince THAT SHALL COME"], etc;

That's why Paul says what he says in 1Th5:1-3 ["birth PANG--SINGULAR"] about its ARRIVAL point in time (connecting it back to what Jesus specifically said in His speaking of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]," which I've explained ["BoBPs"="SEALS"]).



The reason (or one) MANY do not "see" PRE-TRIB RAPTURE in Paul's words (2Th2 and 1Th) IS BECAUSE they improperly DEFINE "the Day of the Lord" AS STARTING / ARRIVING *AT* "Christ's SECOND COMING [Rev19]," which ISN'T THE CASE (that it STARTS at that point... NO!).
They've mistakenly adopted the "Amill-teaching's [and others']" INCORRECT "definition" of it, instead
(so they *think* "Day of the Lord"="Second Coming [Rev19]"--but that it NOT its ARRIVAL point in time, no. It STARTS way back at the FIRST MOMENT of "the 7 year period [TRIB]" at Seal #1)...


Thus, this plays into how they do not "read" what it is that Paul is actually conveying in this 2Th2 text (and thus, MISS his "PRE-trib Rapture" POINT).


Yeah, I was not making that point at all.

EDIT (I hate when I leave out a word that I usually include):


[should read] What most "mis-understand" is, that "the Day of the Lord" ARRIVES / STARTS *when* the "whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA" of the man of sin does" [...]





[and by that, I mean, in his role... which takes place "IN HIS TIME" 2Th2:6]

My translation(nkjv) would be better translated as though the day of the Lord had come. but to me the verses are still talking about our gathering together to Him{rapture} as though the day of the Lord(tribulation) had come.
And think we are in agreement the Day of the Lord is in the 70th week of Daniel, which is the 7 yr tribulation period.

I am unfamiliar with your viewpoint we could be in total agreement or disagreement, I read and reread your post to try and pick up if you are speaking from a pre trib or post trib perspective, so I think you are saying the Day of the Lord begins with and not follows the reign of the Antichrist?

Thanks, Im still eagerly waiting for a response from 2ndTimeIsTheCharm as I am genuinely curious what and how they are preparing for when they enter the tribulation, or how we are to prepare for it in layman's terms, is it the big Shock we are going to get when we realise there is no pre trib rapture or something? Can it be possible they believe we could lose our faith and salvation?

Please keep watching and waiting for the blessed imminent appearing of our Lord.

That is funny. You say you read it as is, then you change the word falling away, apostasia which is falling away, departing from the faith obviously and turn it into: "rapture" in your mind. Departure from the earth.

The kjv unfortunately "leaves off" the definite article ('the') that is actually in the text (with this word);


The Greek has a word for "to fall"... the Greek word "pipto" (like one can see in Hebrews 6:6); but the word under present discussion is not that word;


This word also does not require the definite article (per Greek) yet IT HAS it here in THIS (and one should ask, WHY? [it's NOT used in Acts 21:21]); The definite article serves a couple of purposes. For one, it serves to point BACK to something having already been mentioned in the text;


This word was also used in that era, to speak of "the departure of a boat from a dock" and "the departing of a fever" (i.e. a spatial 'departure');


Context determines "WHAT KIND" of "departure" is meant (for that is its basic "meaning"--"departure [NOUN]"... and in THIS text, "THE departure"... the one having just been written about, two verses prior);



The EARLIER form of this word was: "apostasis" (see Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon, 1889)--"apo"-away from; "stasis"-[a] standing... "a standing away-from" or "departure"...


... and the FIRST SEVEN English translations have it as "a departing" or "departure" (before the kjv--so, the kjv coming SUBSEQUENT to these other English translations, *who* really is doing the "changing" of the text? lol).











The verb form is used in the following couple of verses, for example: Acts 12:10 "and forthwith the angel departed [G868] from him. ; Acts 19:9 [G868]--please see those verses

Oh, I'm sorry, I must have missed your post!

Yes, because the Bible says that there will be a great falling away and that there will be hate and betrayal. I know there are people here who don't believe that can happen, but if the Bible says so, then we have to make sure that we don't end up being a part of that great apostasy.

Jesus Himself said that the great tribulation will be the worst time in all of history and never to be equaled again. We have to take that seriously too. The whole world will hate us because of our loyalty to the Lord. So there will be great persecution. If you read about all the awful things that happened to the Jews during WWII, and you thought that had to be the worst, it will actually be worse in our time. On top of that, refusing the mark of the beast because we choose to remain loyal to the Lord will mean we will get killed. It will also mean the loss of jobs, and the confiscation of property and possessions.

All these things will test the faith and loyalty of people who say they're Christians. In the end, we'll all find out who really are and who aren't prepared to endure to the end.

It won't happen the way you hope. The Lord won't return until after the great tribulation just as it plainly says in the Bible. Build up your faith so when all these things start to come to pass, you'll be able to endure to the end. It is only a little more than 3-1/2 years:

Daniel 12:10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days. (Which is only 3.66 years - a little more than 3-1/2 years. )


🍤

tbey we’re still teaching it near the end of the New Testament epistles because it’s the gospel Jesus taught them



“But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they are teaching it because Jesus taught it

You never know when a thief is going to come to in the night

“And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:39-40‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:32, 35-37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s part of the doctrine not to know , we’re suppose to live every day like Jesus can return tomorrow and keep ourselves in the light. And not be found naked and ashamed

What I find funny is I gave no comments about the word, just bracketed the more correct word, yet you also have used the word as in "departure" from the faith. Funnily enough to me from your view 'departure' is also a better word to use.

I just wonder why God used this word "apostasia" as one could associate it with the motif of "when the Lord comes will He find faith" the implied answer is: there will be few of faith, like as in the days of Noah, or one could associate it with the faithful departing the earth, as there is also a theme in scripture of being caught up to the Lord in the air. which also fits the context.

Personally I just think this word is used because both uses apply simultaneously.

Right. lol

Right on.

The thing we shouldn't do when reading the text itself, is to INJECT the modifiers (into the text) that aren't IN this verse (2Th2:3):

--"[the departure] FROM THE FAITH";

--or "[the departure] FROM MOSES" (which is what Acts 21:21 actually says, minus the definite article ['the'])








Again, the only modifier in THIS verse under discussion, is the definite article ("THE"--[a] definite/specific "departure"); which as I pointed out earlier,
1) in the Greek, for this word, the definite article isn't necessary (note Acts 21:21 doesn't have it with this word);
2) in Greek the definite article serves a couple of purposes; for one, to point BACK to something PREVIOUSLY mentioned in the text (not something further down in the text); V.1's [definite] event "fits" snugly...






... and that's besides the other point made in an earlier post, that Paul REPEATS the *sequence* 3x in this context

(meaning, the SEQUENCE between one thing [a 'definite' event, v.1 (our exit UP!)] and the other thing [the earthly-located DOTL / which at its arrival, "the man of sin BE REVEALED"]);

The "false claim" that Paul is exhorting them not to believe (v.2) is: "[purporting] THAT the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE" (that the TRIB [i.e. judgments unfolding upon the earth] is already HERE),

it was NOT (those sources) SAYING/PURPORTING "that Christ's SECOND COMING IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE."

So this is where the readers of our day are thrown off, because they think this ^ [in PURPLE] was the content / subject of that "false claim" (v.2).
It wasn't!

Thanks. When you say it will be a worse time for us, that even the holocaust will pale in comparison, obviously the scale will be more worldwide, but the treatment may even be better, I mean being beheaded will be a better way to go than what happened in ww2, the photos and video are enough to make one sick. Even crucifixion or burning while torturous is short lived.

Anyway there are many martyrs including the apostles throughout history, if Its good enough for the Lord then it's good enough for us, I reckon.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think we need to build up our faith for persecution or martyrdom, we either have it or we don't, a day old convert will have enough faith if genuine, and a ingenious so called Christian of fifty years will bow down to and recognise another as God.

So to me the smallest amount of real faith is sufficient and will still grow of course.

So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.

Also I refuse to worry about it, whatever the Lord wills the Lord wills, I just go from day to day.

But not a single sparrow can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it. And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows. Matt 10:21

Also we know we are not given more than what we can bear. If we are on the chopping block we will bear it and be given strength for the day.

No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. 1cor 10:13

Of course I'm just speaking hypothetically I'm not even going to be in the tribulation, but it is possible to be martyred before then, while unprepared(I mean who knows how one acts in extreme situations), if the time comes ill just keep looking up for help.

2) in Greek the definite article serves a couple of purposes; for one, to point BACK to something PREVIOUSLY mentioned in the text (not something further down in the text); V.1's [definite] event "fits" snugly...

Indeed it does. Contrarily, the notion of a vast failing of the Church does NOT fit. At all.
In fact this idea of "falling away from the faith" does not jive with the overall tone and tenor of 1st or 2nd Thessalonians.

Departure = rapture is the proper treatment here.

Exactly, as Spock would say, its the logical conclusion
Also I was to add in my reply to TDW, the departure has to happen before the revealing of the man of sin, those who say the departure is the departure from faith, seem to apply this as happening in the day of the Lord, where as contextually they should be saying it happens before the tribulation.