Works and Salvation

An old argument. From two groups. That says it has to be one or the other. Like the Trinity for some who argue what they can't know fully.

Rph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Free will is real. One can obey or not. God is fully able to keep us from falling, yet one can walk away. instead of some saying them and those speak me, I . You and I must examine our selves to see if we are in the faith are we not?

2cor 13:5,2
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

2pet 1:10-11
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


we have to make sure our election is sure?


Obedience of the Holy Spirit when HE is correcting you. He is not slacking in his work to us and for us.

You know if you are saved and you know if you are walking in sin. Does one think the Holy Spirit will not correct a child of God?

then you know. how you respond testifies to whose you are.

Obey God's word is a work we must do not to save us, but those who are saved will obey.

Do we have a choice ? In other words does God force us to do what we’re supposed to or does he enable us to do what we’re supposed to ?

what should we do with the things the lord taught like this ?

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Is this not true because it requires something of me as a believer ?

Why is Paul telling them to work out thier own salvation through obedience because god is working to change their Will and actions ?

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-14‬

our doctrine be loud with this idea and preaching

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭

airs hard to ever do what Paul’s sayong because then people begin saying “ no works nothing to do already saved “

then the scriptire seems wrong that says “ learn to do good works constantly work out your own salvstion God is working on you to Will and do his good purposes “

I did not make up my own definitions. Something is no longer used or out of date because it has been replaced by something else that does the same thing better and if there is not something that does the same thing better, then it has not been made obsolete.

The problem is, the law - that which was replaced - didn't, and couldn't, do that "same thing": achieve that which was required of it - and not that something else could do it better. The law and keeping of it were never able to do so at all, period- it was always shadow, never substance - it was never intended by God that it could/should be a vehicle unto salvation, and that's why, through Christ, for those who are to become saved, law was eternally eliminated.

[Heb 10:1 KJV]
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

[Heb 10:10 KJV]
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

Good questions. Once a person has been convicted and reproved of sin by the work of the Holy Spirit, they are free to accept or reject so great a salvation. The false narrative is that if you accept that, that is a form of work; therefore, you are responsible for saving yourself.


That is foolishness.

If your parents buy you a bed to sleep in and pay for the food you eat, and you pick up a fork to eat it and lay down in the bed to sleep, does that mean you provided the food and bed? In some way, you are telling those who provided the needs.

For you, "it was me who did this because I had to use the spoon or fork to eat with or I had to get into the bed to sleep.


Does anyone see the foolishness in that midset?

“The false narrative is that if you accept that, that is a form of work; therefore, you are responsible for saving yourself.”

whats a form or work ? Is this preaching works and saving oneself ? Or does it require us to hear and believe Jesus as if he is the way and truth and life ?

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if I believe in him I’m going to hear what he’s saying and he teaches us what to believe and do and not do ect

It’s not “ I don’t need to do what he’s teaching me to do because that’s a work of the law “ rather it is “ I believe in Jesus and what he’s telling me is life I need to hear and learn from him and actin those things ‭, I need to walk in faith and follow him “

faith sometimes is interpreted “ I believe so therefore I dont need to repent and obey him anymore I have faith now “

thats not faith though. The doctrine isn’t “ God is going to eventually do everything he told me to do “ it is “now that I have his spirit with me I can do all things through him who makes me strong enough

“I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭4:13‬ ‭

Grace and faith doesn’t erase our role it empowers us to change and be free and do our role by his spirit in us giving us power over the flesh that has ruled us all our lives

We still have to do our part because we believe it’s not that we believe and now we are saved and don’t need to do what god says will save us or stop doing what he said will destroy us

this is true for a believer too

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods Grace towards us is the source of our forgivness and his truth in the gospel becomes our faith to believe and follow the result is that we can partake in the divine nature of Jesus and overcome sin and begin willingly serving the lord with freedom and joy and promise

Listen to Peter here they were t preaching any inactivity because of grace and faith but we’re preaching due diligence because of grace and faith

“Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, according as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. ( purged doesn’t only mean forgiven for but also purified from )

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭1:1-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Its the equivalent is Paul teaching them to “ obey more and more and work out thier own salvation with fear “

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a they were teaching the church not to be complacent , to be diligent to do as much good as possible , and to repent not sin anymore . But whenever they did to repent and confess to the lord because we have an atonement .

The message is t a certain goal we have to reach but to remain diligent and active and be fruitful and multiply the church

it feels like today people interpret grace and faith in extreme ways wherby they somehow become thier own doctrine seperate from all else that’s said in scripture sort of a magic carpet to get out of repentance and obeying the lord

It’s actually the reason why we do repent and obey him the reason why we can do the things we’re supposed to do is because we believe rather than being the reason we never need to hear and obey him

terms like “ faith” and “ grace “ are being really abused it feels like to create the idea no one needs to hear and believe what Jesus said about salvation or repentance but just “say I Believe and I’m saved instead “

I’m not at all saying this is what you are saying brother but , just that it’s happening a lot in the church and destroying peoples faith

I do not think you understood my point nor was I saying you I was not clear either way, If you read my comment I said :


Once a person has been convicted and reproved of sin by the work of the Holy Spirit, they are free to accept or reject so great a salvation.

the form of "works" to some is you accepted Jesus as your lord and Savior or surrender to him and were saved . many think that is work a person does to be saved. If you agree or accept or have faith in that cause one to believe you did the work of salvation.

Sin is what is contrary to God's eternal character, such as with righteousness being in accordance with God's character while unrighteousness is sin and sin is the transgression of God's law because it was given to divide between what is in accordance with or contrary to God's character. For example, the way to testify about God's righteousness is straightforwardly based on God's righteousness, not on a particular covenant, and God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore any instructions that God has ever given for how to testify about His righteousness are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone us under, if any (Psalms 119:160). Likewise, sin was in the world before the law was given (Romans 5:13), so there were no actions that became righteous or sinful when the law was given, but rather it revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that. For example, it was a sin to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9 before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, after it has become obsolete, and if that were to ever change, then God's righteousness would not be eternal.

So there is a difference between a set of instructions for how to testify about God's righteousness and a covenant agreement that includes those instructions as part of its terms. A newer covenant can make older covenants obsolete by making better promises in addition to the promises that have already been made, but it does not nullify the promises of an older covenant, so a newer covenant must be inclusive of all of the older covenants. The New Covenant is made with the same eternal God with the same eternal character traits and therefore the same eternal law for how to testify about His character traits and for someone to follow a different set of laws would involve following a different god with a different set of character traits. As set of instructions for how to testify about God's character can't be eliminated without first eliminating God. Again, in Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant still involves following God's law, so it has not been replaced.

God's law straightforwardly does what it was given to do and does not do what it was not given to do, so there is no fault in it not doing what it was not given to do. God's law is perfect (Psalms 19:7), but it was not given to make us perfect, but rather it is God who makes us perfect by teaching us to obey His law. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by God's law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while God's law was never given as a way of earning our salvation as the result, Jesus teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us His gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.

The foreshadows testify about Christ and we should live in a way that testifies about him by continuing to obey them rather than a way that bears false witness against him by not continuing to obey them. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact image of God's character (Hebrews 1:3), which he testified about by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of negating anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather it still involves following God's law (Jeremiah 31:33). It is contradictory for someone to think that we are saved through trusting in God's word made flesh, but not by trusting in God's word.

No, its promises are neither an addition to nor included within it; it is a complete replacement. The New Covenant entirely supersedes the Old Covenant, with each having a set of stipulations fundamentally opposed to the other. They cannot coexist due to their inherent conflicts—they serve cross-purposes. The Old Covenant was unable to provide salvation for those under it, whereas the New Covenant unconditionally provides salvation for those under it. A person is only under one covenant or the other but not both.

Since the New Covenant has completely superseded the Old Covenant, there is no need to adhere to the stipulations or requirements of the Old. Indeed, attempting to do so would imply the New Covenant is inadequate for fulfilling God's stated intentions and purposes, thus accusing God of falsehood. If we possess true faith, then we rest and trust fully in the New Covenant alone - this trust and rest also comes to us from the New Covenant. We must strictly avoid having anything further to do with or trying to satisfy the Old Covenant.

Through Christ, God's law has become the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, rather than the former temporal earthly law.

[Heb 7:11-12, 18-19, 25 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. ...
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God. ...
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

[Rom 8:1-3 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The old covenant doesn't exist anymore. A correct understanding of the book of Revelation reveals this. The whole book is essentially a retelling of the stipulations of the old covenant, and the sanctions that were coming as a result of the conditions of the old covenant not being met.

The Mosaic Covenant is eternal (Exodus 31:14-17, Leviticus 24:8).

No it's not. Aspects of all the different covenants are eternal, but only those aspects that find their fulfillment in Christ.

In Galatians 3:15-18, even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. The Mosaic Covenant does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God so as to make the promise void and neither does the New Covenant. If you think that God breaks His promises, then you do not understand who He is. God is not at cross purposes with Himself, but rather the step of stipulations of New Covenant is in complete accordance with the Mosaic Covenant. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is in accordance with Jesus being sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26). Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). So Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example, and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10). Do you affirm or deny that God revealed how to act in accordance with His eternal character through the Torah?

The major flaw with that is that Jesus did not teach anything that wasn't in accordance with the OT. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Torah, so Jesus did not make changes to it. Likewise, in Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed His children to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for him was if they taught against obeying the Torah, so again Jesus did not do that. In John 15:10, Jesus used a parallel statement to equate his command with those of the Father, and in John 14:24, he said that his teaching were not his own, but that of the Father, so he did not teach his own set of commands. Jesus is God's word made flesh, so he did not teach anything that was contrary to God's word. God is not in disagreement with Himself about which laws we should follow, so the Law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses. The Spirit has the role of leading us in truth (John 16:13), the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Torah (Ezekiel 36:26-27), and the the Torah is truth (Psalms 119:142).

You are incorrect to think that a priesthood that is headed by God's word made flesh is contrary to following God's word. If the way to testify about God's righteousness could change, then God's righteousness would not be eternal, so Hebrews 7:12 could not be referring to a change of the law in regard to its content, such as with it becoming righteous to commit adultery or sinful to do charity, but rather the context is speaking about a change of the priesthood, which would require a change of the law in regard to its administration.

It is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so the position that we don't need to obey it is the position that we do not need salvation from sin, we do not need the Gospel message, and that we do not need Jesus to have given himself to redeem us from all lawlessness.

In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God commanded without departing from it, so the Torah is the Law of God, which is also why it is referred to as being the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23. In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul equated the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit of life by contrasting them both with the law of sin and death. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so verses like Romans 8:1 that refer to those who are in Christ are only referring to those who are walking in obedience to the Torah. Furthermore, in Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Torah.

You can deny the truth of those verses if you want, but I believe them.

I'm not denying anything. I'm evaluating all that scripture has to say on the matter.

Perhaps you can share an outline of the book of Revelation and highlight the key points of each delineation.

Those verses say that the Mosaic Covenant is eternal, but you said that they are not, so I don't see how you can deny that you're not denying anything. Do you think that the Mosaic Covenant reveals things about who God is that are eternally true or temporary true? Are the promises in regard to the Mosaic Covenant eternally true or does God break His promises? My point was not about Revelation, as you claim, if the Mosaic Covenant doesn't exist any more, then why would Revelation bother retelling of the stipulations of the old covenant and the sanctions that were coming as a result of the conditions of the old covenant not being met?

By all means please explain why how it is in accordance with the correct definition for one thing to make another thing obsolete when the things have separate functions and why it is not in accordance with your definition for one thing to make another thing obsolete when it does the same function better. Do you think that the way to testify about God's righteousness has become obsolete?