The book of Job, my favorite book.

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tttallison

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Terry[/QUOTE]

God's words concerning the three friends is often misquoted.

God never said that they said anything wrong, and God never said anything about them in reference to Job.

Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

Job had not said anything right until the 42 chapter. We know this because God had stated in chapter 38:2 that Job was without knowledge. Job had stated what was right, when he made confession to God, and condemned his own righteousness. This was what the three friends had not said. The three friends had condemned Job, and yet had not told him how to be right with God. They didn't know.

We are held to the same contempt as the three friends when we do not witness to the lost. At least the three friends had an excuse, they didn't know.

The book of Job is about a self-righteous man who needed to put on God's righteousness. Like Paul said in Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

It is interesting that Job's friend Eliphaz made a statement in Job 5:13 that is quoted as scripture in 1 Corinthians 3:19. This is the only NT quote of scripture from the book of Job.

Eliphaz also presented the first two beatitudes in an inverted form in Job 5:11.
 
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tttallison

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cv5 said:
Sorry too busy with work right now.
As far as I can tell, you opine that we should forget about the LXX altogether.

Big mistake.
Click to expand...
No I don't think we should forget it. I think you should start the thread and I will join it.
 
cv5

cv5

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tttallison said:
The book of Job is about a self-righteous man who needed to put on God's righteousness.
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That is the standard cookie cutter explanation in the Church today.
But I think that there is a LOT more going on than that.

The main focus is the heavenly realm, the angelic host (both fallen and unfallen) are packing the courtroom.
In heaven (probably) a TRIAL was convened. Witnesses were called, the prosecutor (Satan) made certain accusations.

More later......as regard's Jobs folly and error in all of this. Which he later corrected.

The point of it all IMO? This is the point.

Mat 4:7
Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.' ”

The KJV translates Strong's G1598 in the following manner: tempt (4x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. to prove, test, thoroughly
  2. to put to proof God's character and power
 
cv5

cv5

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cv5 said:
That is the standard cookie cutter explanation in the Church today.
But I think that there is a LOT more going on than that.

The main focus is the heavenly realm, the angelic host (both fallen and unfallen) are packing the courtroom.
In heaven (probably) a TRIAL was convened. Witnesses were called, the prosecutor (Satan) made certain accusations.

More later......as regard's Jobs folly and error in all of this. Which he later corrected.

The point of it all IMO? This is the point.

Mat 4:7
Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.' ”

The KJV translates Strong's G1598 in the following manner: tempt (4x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. to prove, test, thoroughly
  2. to put to proof God's character and power
Click to expand...
Mat 4:7
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt G1598 ➔ not tempt G1598 the Lord thy God.

Luk 4:12
And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt G1598 ➔ not tempt G1598 the Lord thy God.

Luk 10:25
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted G1598 him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

1Co 10:9
Neither let us tempt G1598 Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
 
T

tttallison

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cv5 said:
Mat 4:7
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt G1598 ➔ not tempt G1598 the Lord thy God.

Luk 4:12
And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt G1598 ➔ not tempt G1598 the Lord thy God.

Luk 10:25
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted G1598 him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

1Co 10:9
Neither let us tempt G1598 Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
Click to expand...
Sorry but I am not following your line of thought in posts 43 and 44.
 
cv5

cv5

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tttallison said:
Sorry but I am not following your line of thought in posts 43 and 44.
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Job is the subject, not the object of the book for one thing.

God is sanctified and glorified is the ultimate theme.
The angelic realm are the intended audience. They are looking down upon the spectacle, and learning of Satan's lies, his schemes, and his failure and defeat.

Mat 4:7
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt G1598 ➔ not tempt G1598 the Lord thy God.

You shall NOT put the LORD thy God on TRIAL!
Which is exactly what Satan was doing in Matt 4 and Job. And Job was as well. Until he repented of his foolishness.
Then God sanctified HIMSELF by forgiving Job (after HIS CONFESSION) and blessing him.

@posthuman knows all of this. Ask him.
 
christophernyc

christophernyc

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tttallison said:
God had no reason to explain Elihu to Job. It was by Job's request that Elihu appeared. Doesn't it appear strange to you that no one could make a reply to Elihu, and that Elihu was given six chapters to himself. Job twice requested a man of clay to be mediator between God and himself. Job's reasoning was that God would not be just. That God would laugh at the trial of the innocent.

Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.

The two requests of Job are found in Job 9:32-35 Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Job 9:33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Job 9:34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Job 9:35 Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.

AND

Job 13:19-22 Job 13:19 Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost. Job 13:20 Only do not two things unto me: then will I not hide myself from thee. Job 13:21 Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid. Job 13:22 Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me.

Notice that Job first requests a mediator. Then Job asks God to take his hand away. Then he asks God to not make him afraid. Then if God does this Job says he will speak. (Can you see that these two requests are very similar.)

Then enters Elihu, and he says, Job 33:5 If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up.

In a court of Law this would be the judge ordering the defendant to stand up and make a plea.

Job 33:6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. (There is no need for God to reaffirm who Elihu is. This is the answer to Job's request and Job understands it.)

Job 33:7 Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee. (We should now understand why Job was a young man. A young man would put no fear in Job. Elihu has fulfilled the requests of Job in order for him to make his plea.)

Thank you for replying to this thread.
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No, I don't think it strange that nobody replied to Elihu. Interesting, yes - but not particularly strange. Yes, Elihu's uninterrupted speeches are very long.

Job 9:23 reads like other expressions of pain or despair like ones you might find in Psalms. Under the circumstances, this must have been how Job felt. However, we know by so many other things Job says that this is not ultimately what Job believes. Reread chapter 23. Job knows he is innocent and not suffering because of anything he has done wrong. In chapter 23 he exclaims that if God were to try his case (like in court) that Job would come out as pure gold (23:10).

Yes, I would agree that Elihu is acting as a mediator in this way. However, I do not conclude that it is God who appoints Elihu to this position. Instead I would assert that Elihu appoints himself as this mediator.

Question: if God Himself is going to show up and appear to Job, why would Job need Elihu? What does Elihu offer that God Himself is not already going to give Job, and much more besides?

Question: in everything that Elihu says, are you factoring in the fact that he burning with anger? (It says four times that Elihu is angry.) It's probably part of the reason why he talks so much. Have you ever been counseled by someone who is full of anger? Would you want to? Would you open up and have a conversation with someone burning with anger? And do you notice that most of Elihu's statements to Job are hard accusations? They are full of judgment and criticism. God does not speak like that to Job. Did you notice that God does not act like an accuser with Job like Elihu? Instead, God asks Job questions. There is grace in asking questions. There is no grace in making hard accusations, like Elihu does with Job.
 
christophernyc

christophernyc

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cv5 said:
Job is the subject, not the object of the book for one thing.

God is sanctified and glorified is the ultimate theme.
The angelic realm are the intended audience. They are looking down upon the spectacle, and learning of Satan's lies, his schemes, and his failure and defeat.

Mat 4:7
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt G1598 ➔ not tempt G1598 the Lord thy God.

You shall NOT put the LORD thy God on TRIAL!
Which is exactly what Satan was doing in Matt 4 and Job. And Job was as well. Until he repented of his foolishness.
Then God sanctified HIMSELF by forgiving Job (after HIS CONFESSION) and blessing him.

@posthuman knows all of this. Ask him.
Click to expand...
Do you believe Job sinned?
 
T

tttallison

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[QUOTE="christophernyc Job 9:23 reads like other expressions of pain or despair like ones you might find in Psalms. Under the circumstances, this must have been how Job felt. However, we know by so many other things Job says that this is not ultimately what Job believes. Reread chapter 23. Job knows he is innocent and not suffering because of anything he has done wrong. In chapter 23 he exclaims that if God were to try his case (like in court) that Job would come out as pure gold (23:10). .[/QUOTE]

Are we to write off everything that Job said that puts the narrative of Job's innocence in jeopardy. Such as Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

Job 30:21Thou art become cruel to me: with thy strong hand thou opposest thyself against me.

Job 19:7 Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud, but there is no judgment.

Job 19:10 He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree.

We are to understand that Job is striving with God. Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

God's answer to those that strive with Him. Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Job and his three friends were potsherds striving with one another.

It would seem that you are under the assumption that Job was innocent, but that is not the case. Job failed the second test.
 
christophernyc

christophernyc

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tttallison said:
[QUOTE="christophernyc Job 9:23 reads like other expressions of pain or despair like ones you might find in Psalms. Under the circumstances, this must have been how Job felt. However, we know by so many other things Job says that this is not ultimately what Job believes. Reread chapter 23. Job knows he is innocent and not suffering because of anything he has done wrong. In chapter 23 he exclaims that if God were to try his case (like in court) that Job would come out as pure gold (23:10). .
Click to expand...
Are we to write off everything that Job said that puts the narrative of Job's innocence in jeopardy. Such as Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

Job 30:21Thou art become cruel to me: with thy strong hand thou opposest thyself against me.

Job 19:7 Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud, but there is no judgment.

Job 19:10 He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree.

We are to understand that Job is striving with God. Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

God's answer to those that strive with Him. Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Job and his three friends were potsherds striving with one another.

It would seem that you are under the assumption that Job was innocent, but that is not the case. Job failed the second test.[/QUOTE]

And yet despite all of that, God Himself explicitly states at in chapter 42 that Job has spoken rightly about Him (God). Did you notice that?

Also, do you believe Job sinned?

Thanks for the dialogue!
 
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tttallison

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#53
And yet despite all of that, God Himself explicitly states at in chapter 42 that Job has spoken rightly about Him (God). Did you notice that?

Also, do you believe Job sinned?

Thanks for the dialogue![/QUOTE]

We all have spoken rightly when we confess our sins to God.

Yes I believe Job sinned when he failed his second test.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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tttallison said:
And yet despite all of that, God Himself explicitly states at in chapter 42 that Job has spoken rightly about Him (God). Did you notice that?

Also, do you believe Job sinned?

Thanks for the dialogue!
Click to expand...
We all have spoken rightly when we confess our sins to God.

Yes I believe Job sinned when he failed his second test.[/QUOTE]
Where is the 2nd test listed?
 
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tttallison

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Cameron143 said:
We all have spoken rightly when we confess our sins to God.

Yes I believe Job sinned when he failed his second test.
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Where is the 2nd test listed?[/QUOTE]

First test Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Second test Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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tttallison said:
Where is the 2nd test listed?
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First test Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Second test Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.[/QUOTE]
It's the same test. Satan just doubled down on the first bet.
What specifically was Job's sin?


BTW...who won the bet: Satan or God?
 
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Bruce_Leiter

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tttallison said:
Bruce greetings.

I definitely believe it is historical.
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I do too. When I was toward the end of my seven-year period of major depression, Job and the Psalms were God's gift to me for my comfort.

Almost half of the Psalms are at least part lament, which is not in our culture but is a pattern in Scripture. You can see, also, Job chapters 3, 7, and 10, especially the last one in which Job bares his emotions complaining to God in true faith about the differences between God's promises and Job's suffering.

Through those Psalms, especially 22, 39, and 88, God taught me to lament, that is, unload my anger and anxiety on him openly and honestly. This lamenting was not like the unbelieving laments that the Israelites made in the desert. It is lamenting in true faith (see Philippians 4:6,7).

It took me 8 1/2 months three or four times a week to lament the many losses in the previous 43 years of my life (I'm 82 now.) until God gave me his gift of peace of Philippians 4:7, which has stayed with me for all those years.

Again, when the stress builds up about new struggles, I have lamented persistently three or four different times. God gave me peace about those issues too.

The Book of Job is not primarily about suffering but is about the persistence of true faith in dealing with suffering.
 
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tttallison

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Cameron143 said:
First test Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Second test Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Click to expand...
It's the same test. Satan just doubled down on the first bet.
What specifically was Job's sin?


BTW...who won the bet: Satan or God?[/QUOTE]

No it is not the same test. The first test involved Job's possessions, and the second test involved Job's flesh.

You ask who won the bet, but which test are you referring to, the first or second?
 
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tttallison

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#59
Bruce_Leiter said:
I do too. When I was toward the end of my seven-year period of major depression, Job and the Psalms were God's gift to me for my comfort.

Almost half of the Psalms are at least part lament, which is not in our culture but is a pattern in Scripture. You can see, also, Job chapters 3, 7, and 10, especially the last one in which Job bares his emotions complaining to God in true faith about the differences between God's promises and Job's suffering.

Through those Psalms, especially 22, 39, and 88, God taught me to lament, that is, unload my anger and anxiety on him openly and honestly. This lamenting was not like the unbelieving laments that the Israelites made in the desert. It is lamenting in true faith (see Philippians 4:6,7).

It took me 8 1/2 months three or four times a week to lament the many losses in the previous 43 years of my life (I'm 82 now.) until God gave me his gift of peace of Philippians 4:7, which has stayed with me for all those years.

Again, when the stress builds up about new struggles, I have lamented persistently three or four different times. God gave me peace about those issues too.

The Book of Job is not primarily about suffering but is about the persistence of true faith in dealing with suffering.
Click to expand...
Praise the Lord for his goodness.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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tttallison said:
It's the same test. Satan just doubled down on the first bet.
What specifically was Job's sin?


BTW...who won the bet: Satan or God?
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No it is not the same test. The first test involved Job's possessions, and the second test involved Job's flesh.

You ask who won the bet, but which test are you referring to, the first or second?[/QUOTE]
The bet was would Job curse God. Upon losing his family and possessions, Job worshipped. Satan lost. So Satan doubles down and includes an attack on Job. While Job's faith is tested, God uses the opportunity to reveal Himself much more intimately to Job. And Job still doesn't curse God. Same test, merely extended.

I also asked what Job's sin was specifically. Can you share?
 
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