The book of Job, my favorite book.

Your question is, "Where does God say Job is suffering undeservedly after the second test?" This question seems quite muddy. The first thing Job suffers is the loss of his children and possessions. The second thing Job suffers is the loss of his health. The rest of the story is Job bemoaning these tragedies (as anyone would) and seeking God as to why they occurred. In the text you can see that Job believes he is now on his way to die. He does not believe he will recover from this ordeal and is ready to rest in his grave. In fact, he believes the sooner he will die the better because he does not want to deny God, which is the ultimate test of his whole ordeal.

Job's story is about patience and endurance in the face of suffering. Job is a model for this, as the apostle James points out in James 5:10,11. Would you disagree with the account of Job given in this epistle?

Job is not Jesus. Of course. But do you not see the parallel between them? Specifically, do you not see the parallel between Job's ordeal of suffering and Christ Jesus' passion when He went to the Cross and suffered punishment as an innocent Man?

Not sure you answered the question that was posed. You stated unequivocally that God would not destroy the perfect, and yet in the events of Christ Jesus' suffering, that is precisely what happened. Yes, it's to reveal Christ's deity. OK. But your statement is still contradictory that God would not allow the perfect to be destroyed. How do you reconcile this contradiction?

I agree that men wrote the books of the Bible and that God is ultimately the Author. Could not agree more with you on that point.

Regarding Elihu, again what does the amount of words have to do with it? I've explained this point before in detail (see previous posts). Still, the question posed was: Is not the *substance* of the words more important than the amount of the words? I don't think I saw any answer to this question.

Again, Elihu's position is that God would be unjust to allow an innocent man to suffer, and yet God did allow it. This is where we disagree because it seems you believe Elihu's claim and not God's claim about Job's character at the beginning of the story.

I do not believe God's question of "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?" is necessarily a condemnation. I have pointed this out several times, but what God says is in the form of a *question*, which affords a person grace. Harsh statements and accusations often result in condemnation. Think of Paul when confronted by Jesus on the road to Damascus. Does Jesus accuse him of being a murderer? No. Instead Jesus asks, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?" It's a question, it's not an accusation.

You said Job does not say anything right until 42:6. So what do you think about 19:25 when Job says, "
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth." Is your position that Job is speaking incorrectly? What about 28:23-28 where Job says:
23 God understandeth the way thereof, and he knoweth the place thereof.
24 For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;
25 To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure.
26 When he made a decree for the rain, and a way for the lightning of the thunder:
27 Then did he see it, and declare it; he prepared it, yea, and searched it out.
28 And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

So according to your position, Job is speaking incorrectly here? Is that what you believe?

I do not believe Job is flatly calling God unjust. Under the extreme circumstances of what has happened to Job, isn't it logical he would ask questions along this line? But more importantly, the fact that Job seeks God, pursues God, presses in to know why this was allowed to happen underscores the fact that Job *wants* a relationship with God. This is what pains Job the most. Job would understand if he has sinned - he just wants God to tell him. But that is not what is happening here.

This wrestling by Job is actually proof that satan's claim at the beginning was absolutely false. God is letting Job's suffering play out to prove that Job does *not* actually love God solely because of the benefits. God allows this to be explicitly obvious to everyone, even to Job himself.

What is so sad is that the very proof on display to prove satan wrong is also used by others to be the very thing to accuse, condemn and hate on Job.

It does not say Job sinned not. True. It also does not say Job sinned either. This is not a strong argument. In fact, there is more evidence that he did not sin based on what it does say, i.e., he did not sin with his lips.

Have you considered why the author specifies that Job does not sin "with his lips"? The whole premise is that Job would curse God, namely deny God and abandon God with what he *says*.

Yes, Job thinks God is angry with him. What other conclusion could he draw under the circumstances? But outside of Job's limited understanding, where do you find support for this idea? We have evidence and confirmation of God being angry with the three friends, but what confirmation do you have of God being *actually* angry with Job? That is the question.

I have to say that I personally like some of the things you say regarding parts of the story of Job. In some ways, it would be much easier to accept your interpretation. However, the problem is that in order to do that, some glaring basic facts and details provided to the writer have to be distorted, changed, or simply ignored. Worse still is that other ideas not germane to the story are then needed to be inserted unnecessarily into the story in order to uphold that interpretation.

However, I do not believe you have to compromise the integrity of what is actually written in this book in order to understand the story. As difficult as it may be to accept some of the basic facts, it's only proper to accept the story as written.

So, to be clear, God does *not* say that there is no one as "self-righteous" as Job. God does not say that, as you have claimed. This is a distortion.

Again, if Job was self-righteous, then God would have *cause* to punish Job. I know you believe this is the case, but God clearly states it was *without cause*.

Furthermore, why doesn't the author simply tell us that Job was self-righteous? It might read, "There once was a man in the land of Uz named Job, and this man was full of his own self-righteousness. So one day God employs satan to humble Job and teach this man a lesson." Perhaps there's too much English on this, but you get the idea. To the point, the text does not express anything like this at all. Why? Because that is not the story. We cannot change facts about the story because we want the story to mean what we want it to mean.

I agree with what God said about Job in chapter one. I disagree with your interpretation of what God said.

I've never heard anyone characterize Job's words that way, i.e., all this suffering doesn't bother me a bit. I don't think anyone taking this story seriously and reading Job's actual words take this view. However, Job does endure the suffering patiently, as James deduces in his epistle in 5:10,11.

Not sure anyone has claimed that Job *is* Jesus. However, it has been pointed out the striking parallel between their two ordeals, specifically Jesus passion and suffering on the way to the Cross.

You think that Job loses hope in God? It's clear by what he says that he loses hope in his situation, namely that he thinks he will not recover from his ordeal.

Also, what are your thoughts about Jesus stating on the Cross while dying, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" In your view, does this make Jesus not perfect for asking God the Father this question? Do you not see the similarity in sentiment here with the words of Job?

Right. You believe God is essentially accusing Job of self-righteousness when he points him out to satan. I believe that is your position, correct?

So with all of this talk of Elihu, instead of being enamored by the length of his speech, can we go through and look at what he says? Can we examine his words? Understanding his character is what unlocked the story for me, and I believe you agreed with that, too (albeit for different reasons, which I get). Since he is an important figure in this story to both of us, can we discuss why.

Here are some questions regarding Elihu, some of which I've already asked and received no clear answer, and some will be ones not previously asked.

1. Elihu is burning with anger while presenting as Job's mediator. How is it helpful to anyone if their mediator is burning with anger? If we suppose the mediation is to help Job, how is Elihu's rage helpful in this situation?

2. Have you noticed that in the beginning of Elihu's speech how many times he references himself with "I" or "me"? Why does he begin by making this all about him?

3. How do you interpret 32:22?

4. Elihu says Job has said that he (Job) is pure and without transgression in 33:9. This is effectively what God has said about Job in the beginning. So why is Elihu trying to make Job think the *opposite* of what God has stated about Job?

5. Elihu states that God speaks in two ways in chapter 33, namely through dreams and also through pain. Why doesn't Elihu say that God also speaks to man directly? God appears in the whirlwind and speaks directly to Job in the end. Why doesn't Elihu mention that?

6. The mediator Elihu describes in 33:23-28 seems to be a mediator who will pray to God for a man's deliverance. So if Job is in sin, as you say, where is Elihu's prayer like this to God on Job's behalf? And what else does Elihu actually do that qualifies him as Job's mediator?

7. The zenith of the book of Job is chapter 28 according to the chiastic structure of Hebrew poetry. This chapter is part of Job's speech, and it ends with Job quoting God saying to man, "Behold the fear of the Lord is wisdom and to depart from evil is understanding." If this is the greatest pearl of wisdom in this entire book, what could Elihu possibly add to it? What "wisdom" does Elihu teach that Job does not already understand?

8. In 34:4 Elihu states, "Let us choose for ourselves what is right; let us know among ourselves what is good." Really? How can mere man know among themselves what is right? Does Elihu ever pray and seek God in this story? And how are these men supposed to "know among themselves" what is good? How does that work? This sounds like Judges 21:25 where everyone did what was right in their own eyes.

9. In 34:11 Elihu says that God pays man back according to his work, implying that Job is receiving what he deserves in this punishment. Again, we know from the outset Job is not suffering because of a sin he has committed. That is explicit in the text. Job's three friends take this stance, and they are proven wrong in the end. Elihu is also wrong. Also, if Elihu is correct, how do you reconcile Psalm 103:10 that says, "He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities."

10. In 34:36 Elihu says, "My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men." Do notice how malevolent this is? Even if Job were wrong (and I don't believe he is), how is this the position of a helpful mediator? He is effectively wishing Job should be tortured. Would you want a mediator like this one?

11. In 35:2 Elihu accuses Job of claiming he is more righteous than God. Again, where does it say this? I know there have been verses presented that are bent toward that meaning, but where does Job make this claim? Again, he claims the opposite in chapter 9 and even when God questions Job along this line, Job's answer is "no", he does not believe he is more righteous than God.

12. Referring to himself in 36:4 Elihu says that one who is perfect in knowledge is with them. Do you believe that Elihu is perfect in knowledge? Is that your position? Then in 37:16 Elihu refers to God as perfect in knowledge. So Elihu is essentially equating himself with God in that. Does that sound right to you?

Was Elihu"s mission to help Job, or correct him? Would you be angry with Satan for elevating himself above God?

Wouldn't correcting Job be the help that needs (if Elihu is his mediator)? Wouldn't wanting to correct also serve the purpose of helping him? How are they not inextricably linked in purpose?

If satan elevated himself above God, it would be laughable. As believers, we know this will amount to nothing, and more importantly I don't think God would tolerate it. Look at 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8 which talks about someone who does this sort of thing, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."

Didn't God destroy Jerusalem, in his anger, twice? If Elihu was standing in God's place, wouldn't he have a right to be angry with Job for exalting himself above God?


Eze 28:6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Is this a picture of Satan exalting himself?

It is arguable that Job is speaking to Job's patience in his suffering or of his patience toward his friends, as v.9 advises, "Do not complain about one another..." But yes, Job did persevere in the situation that, while in it, "he loses hope in". In all his annoyance with his friends, does Job curse any of them? Rather, he ultimately prays to the Lord for them, that He not deal with them according to their folly, but the Lord would not without their offer of a burnt offering.

The Lord didn't require a burnt offering from Job, but, as Bible Hub explains, "The meaning of the whole burnt offering was that which is the original idea of all sacrifice, the offering by the sacrificer of himself, soul and body, to God--the submission of his will to the will of the Lord."

The parallel of Jesus to Job is that, no sooner than He 'complained' about His situation, Jesus accepted God's will with all trust, not withholding any reservations in concern for the smallest grain of injustice. And this is Jesus' attitude while dying saying immediately afterward, with His last breath, "Into Your hands, I commend my spirit." Also, with Jesus, God was not slack in answering Jesus to give Him rest from His suffering, as soon as He called out, "My God, My God..." But on the other hand, Job did not see respite until he arrived at that point of humility, 42 chapters in, when he decides to submit himself to the Lord, as supported by the heading of the Chapter "Job Submits Himself to the LORD."

What may be helpful for our discussion is pointing out where we do agree. Please let me know if you think otherwise, but it seems we both agree that Job is one kind of person at the beginning of the story, and after his ordeal is raised to a new level of insight, understanding, and revelation. Does that sound accurate? It sounds like this is your position (in broad strokes), and it is one that I fully support as well. Job does change, grow, and develop as a character in this story. Is that fair to say that we both agree to this general aspect of the story?

Christopher Greetings, Now have internet back after the storm. Still do not have electricity.

My perception of Job is that he represents all of Edom. The Bible from Genesis to Revelation is about Israel. There were two brothers, Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel, and Esau, who is Edom. Jacob received the birthright from Esau, but they both received a similar blessing.

Elihu said, Job 34:29 When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only:

The parallel between Israel and Job is amazing.

Deu 32:12- So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him. He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock; Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape. But Jeshurun/(upright one) waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

Job 29:3 When his candle shined upon my head, and when by his light I walked through darkness; Job 29:6 When I washed my steps with butter, and the rock poured me out rivers of oil; Job 15:27 Because he covereth his face with his fatness, and maketh collops of fat on his flanks.
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Deu 32:23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.

Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.
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Deu 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

Job 1:16-19 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
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Deu 32:28-29 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them. O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!

Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
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Rom 10:1-3 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Romans 10:1-3 is a picture of Job. Unsaved yet having a zeal for God, but without knowledge. Trying to establish his own righteousness, and yet not submitting to God's righteousness.

I believe my salvation experience gives me insight into the book of Job, so i will share it here since you have opened up this thread for discussion on Job.

I was on a Pee Wee football team, we were dominant, won all our games, flew to Florida and won our bowl game. I was 11 at the time and got a big head. This was the same time that Mohammed Ali was going to Fight Joe Frazier at Madison square garden. I was in sixth grade and so I organized our own prize fight. We set up a ring in my best friends back yard, we put down mattresses, had three judges, a ref, and I fought Mike Irwin a 12 round fight with 3 minute rounds. A 12 round prize fight is essentially a marathon race with 12 3 minute sprints that include getting punched in the face. Every round I was getting beat up and didn't know what to do. My friends in my corner were like Job's friends, equally clueless. By the third round my nose was bleeding and did not stop for the rest of the fight. That was the closest I have been to death in my whole life and I understand why boxers are checked into the hospital after these 12 round fights. My head felt like it had been completely drained. I lost the fight by a decision. Apparently Mike Irwin was equally in pain which is how my father found out about this. He used to be a professional boxer. He came and talked to me and in 1 minute gave me two tips which would have helped me tremendously in that fight. I felt like an idiot, why hadn't I talked to him beforehand? After that our PeeWee team had another season and we were even more dominant than the first season, flying to Dallas for our bowl game and winning that as well.

To me the lesson was simple, I needed God to be my coach, in my corner. The reason our PeeWee team was so good was our coach. There is a weight limit and age limit so it wasn't because we had anyone bigger, faster, or stronger. It was simply because we did what our coach told us to do.

A lot of people ask why does God allow such terrible things to happen on earth? They happen because people don't have God in their corner, they aren't seeking Him to coach them. God asks Job "do you have an arm like God"? No, so then why don't you ask God for his advice? Do you have a voice like God? No, so again, talk to God and get his advice.

After that 2nd year I was too old to be on that coach's team anymore so I began to seek for something to get involved in and that led me to find the Lord and get saved. So then, like Job my end was more blessed than my beginning.

Amazing story. God is good, and only God.

Thank you for sharing your testimony here. God bless you.

Also, have you ever noticed in the Book of Job that Job does in fact make inquiries of the Lord during his ordeal? In fact, if you will notice, he is the only one in the entire story actually praying, pressing in and seeking for the Lord.

It sounds like you see Job as someone who did not "ask his coach" as it were. Is that your position?

Yes, my position is that this is the blessing that Job gets at the end. Initially the prayers are all vague and his response to the calamity as though it is all fate. We received good from God's hand so we can also receive ill.

I believe God made man in His image and after His likeness because we are supposed to have an arm like God and a voice like God and God is telling him that God would not simply lie down and take it when the enemy comes along.

We can obviously see that Job is a prefigure of Jesus and Jesus conquered death, He wasn't conquered by it. We also have the resurrection life if we are saved.

God desires us to rule and reign over everything and so the things that happen to us in our life are simply our being trained to rule and reign and they are an opportunity for us to turn to the Lord and allow it to be "no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me".

For example, I was a teacher in Brooklyn at a school with kids who were performing at the very bottom of NYC. My prayer is that they would score at the very top in my subject (they have a regents exam at the end of the year). By all accounts that should have been impossible, but Colossians says that all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Christ, so I figured with His help it wasn't and sure enough they did score at the very top.