Christian Nationalism (This deserves it's own thread)

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HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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May 21, 2022
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Thinking on this modern movement, I really think the problem is American Christian Nationalism.
It ties the culture of the nation to Christianity, not good.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Christianity, lived well, will invariably affect the culture.
 
Mem

Mem

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The more the world drifts away from Christianity, it shouldn't be a wonder that the world drifts farther and farther away from reality.
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

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JTB said:
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I can agree with Cremer as far as this goes; but I don't think he's someone who is very Biblically sound. He comes from a Wesleyan/Methodist background and believes Christ's church needs LGBTQ+ members; and accepts them, no questions asked. In this article https://ckarchive.com/b/mvu7h5hgnx6x6, he encourages the reading of material that undermines the Bible's doctrines on homosexuality.
 
JTB

JTB

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Mem said:
The more the world drifts away from Christianity, it shouldn't be a wonder that the world drifts farther and farther away from reality.
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Yes, we were warned thousands of years ago that the world would move in this direction.

We should not act surprised to see it happening.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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JTB said:
Yes, but there is a difference between the culture being affected, and trying to codify it.
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Sure, but you don't need laws if you walk in the Spirit.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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JTB said:
Yes, we were warned thousands of years ago that the world would move in this direction.

We should not act surprised to see it happening.
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I'm surprised more people don't expect the kingdom of God to become the largest kingdom.
 
Mem

Mem

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Cameron143 said:
I'm surprised more people don't expect the kingdom of God to become the largest kingdom.
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It seems to me that the understanding of Matthew 11:12 is most reflective of reality as saying, "from the time of John to now [hence-forth); here(-after); hither(-to)...] the rule of Christ has been subject to violence and violent men lay claim to it by robbery.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Mem said:
It seems to me that the understanding of Matthew 11:12 is most reflective of reality as saying, "from the time of John to now [hence-forth); here(-after); hither(-to)...] the rule of Christ has been subject to violence and violent men lay claim to it by robbery.
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So what is your understanding of the verse?
 
Mem

Mem

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Cameron143 said:
So what is your understanding of the verse?
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That is my understanding of the verse. Violent men claim possession of it by broad illegitimate means, but the way is straight and narrow, and the kingdom of heaven is the only legitimate rule.

*Sorry for the delayed response, engaged in a battle with a violent and sleepy 2yo trying to take over my kingdom
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Mem said:
That is my understanding of the verse. Violent men claim possession of it by broad illegitimate means, but the way is straight and narrow, and the kingdom of heaven is the only legitimate rule.

*Sorry for the delayed response, engaged in a battle with a violent and sleepy 2yo trying to take over my kingdom
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I'm still of 2 minds on it. One is as you said, and the other has to do with the zeal by which one truly enters the kingdom with. That is, when someone is truly under conviction before God, there is nothing they won't do to come out from under that conviction and find peace with God.
 
Mem

Mem

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Cameron143 said:
I'm still of 2 minds on it. One is as you said, and the other has to do with the zeal by which one truly enters the kingdom with. That is, when someone is truly under conviction before God, there is nothing they won't do to come out from under that conviction and find peace with God.
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That's the other side of it, certainly I agree. We are directed to stand in faith, guarding your peace against the world's continuous assault with every intention to strip you of your inheritance.
 
ZNP

ZNP

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Cameron143 said:
I'm still of 2 minds on it. One is as you said, and the other has to do with the zeal by which one truly enters the kingdom with. That is, when someone is truly under conviction before God, there is nothing they won't do to come out from under that conviction and find peace with God.
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I think it is important to understand that this word in Matthew translated "violent" is only used in the book of Matthew. Every book in the New Testament has seven words unique to that book not used in any other New Testament book. So these seven words give us a picture of what the unique agenda of each book of the Bible.

Obviously Matthew, Mark and Luke have quite a bit that overlaps between them. However, I would say you can make a strong case from the Bible that these three synoptic gospels have three specific audiences that they are describing and Matthew is describing the nation of Israel. The word really means forceful, but could also be understood as violent.

Now the term "suffereth violence" is used twice, both in Matthew and in Luke.

Here is what Luke says "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth G971 into it."

So obviously every man who is saved must "press into the kingdom" and the term certainly does not mean illegitimately. It is a battle to be a Christian that is fully given to the Lord. If that is not your experience then something is wrong. Matthew identifies the nation of Israel as these "violent" men. But that could also be translated as "forceful men". Abraham was a forceful man. Jacob wrestling with God was a forceful man. Joseph imprisoning Simeon was a forceful man. The patriarchs selling Joseph as a slave were forceful men. Samson slaying the Philistines was a forceful man. David slaying Goliath was a forceful man.

Any genuine Christian will be involved in spiritual warfare and will have to press their way into the kingdom.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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#18
ZNP said:
I think it is important to understand that this word in Matthew translated "violent" is only used in the book of Matthew. Every book in the New Testament has seven words unique to that book not used in any other New Testament book. So these seven words give us a picture of what the unique agenda of each book of the Bible.

Obviously Matthew, Mark and Luke have quite a bit that overlaps between them. However, I would say you can make a strong case from the Bible that these three synoptic gospels have three specific audiences that they are describing and Matthew is describing the nation of Israel. The word really means forceful, but could also be understood as violent.

Now the term "suffereth violence" is used twice, both in Matthew and in Luke.

Here is what Luke says "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth G971 into it."

So obviously every man who is saved must "press into the kingdom" and the term certainly does not mean illegitimately. It is a battle to be a Christian that is fully given to the Lord. If that is not your experience then something is wrong. Matthew identifies the nation of Israel as these "violent" men. But that could also be translated as "forceful men". Abraham was a forceful man. Jacob wrestling with God was a forceful man. Joseph imprisoning Simeon was a forceful man. The patriarchs selling Joseph as a slave were forceful men. Samson slaying the Philistines was a forceful man. David slaying Goliath was a forceful man.

Any genuine Christian will be involved in spiritual warfare and will have to press their way into the kingdom.
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This is an excellent explanation.
 
Mem

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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#19
ZNP said:
term certainly does not mean
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When searching "take it by force" using the Bible Hub search engine, two example verses come up; 1Sam 2:16 and Matt 11:12

I suspect your perspective of those left behind affected your conclusion. It is my perspective that those left behind are not seized.

1Samuel 2:16 ".....If you refuse, I will take it by force."

Strong's Hebrew 3947: seize
Strong's Hebrew 2394: violence

Matthew 11:12
Strong's Greek 973: the violent
Strong's Greek 726:
To seize, snatch, obtain by robbery. From a derivative of haireomai; to seize.

Compare those to Luke 12:32
Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father is pleased to give you the kingdom.
 
ZNP

ZNP

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Mem said:
When searching "take it by force" using the Bible Hub search engine, two example verses come up; 1Sam 2:16 and Matt 11:12

I suspect your perspective of those left behind affected your conclusion. It is my perspective that those left behind are not seized.

1Samuel 2:16 ".....If you refuse, I will take it by force."

Strong's Hebrew 3947: seize
Strong's Hebrew 2394: violence

Matthew 11:12
Strong's Greek 973: the violent
Strong's Greek 726:
To seize, snatch, obtain by robbery. From a derivative of haireomai; to seize.

Compare those to Luke 12:32
Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father is pleased to give you the kingdom.
Click to expand...
The term
"suffer violence" is a Greek word, not a Hebrew word and it is used twice in the New Testament. The use in Luke says that every believer will have to "push into" the kingdom. Same word. So that is why I have interpreted the way I do.
 
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