What Changed?

Thanks for your non-answer. But the fact that you cannot answer my question about the divine justice (or lack thereof) of physical death for the very young, shoots a big hole in you claim that God would be unjust if he allowed the very young to suffer the second death for all eternity. You cannot reconcile the reality of physical death that infants and babies and small children undergo everyday all over this planet with your ill-conceived claim that God would be unjust if he condemned such to the eternal second death.

I understand your position. I just disagree.

You should try to remember this important hermeneutical principle when interpreting passages: Narratives in scripture very often are illustrations of biblical doctrines (which is the case with 2Sam 12). Jesus in Mat 18 is very clearly teaching the Preservation of his Father's sheep (which in this particular passage includes physically small children and God's spiritual children of all ages). And when it comes to the Good Shepherd preserving or keeping his Father's flock, He is keeping his Father's revealed, decretive will. Mat 18 doesn't have just God's desires in view -- but his eternal, decretive will on a matter.

Might freeze your two lips for a while.

Tell me?
If we are truly TOTALLY depraved?

What does God have left to save?

The doctrine of unlimited excuses.

The key is one of the inability for continuous action?

I disagree with your claim to be understanding of his position.

Furthermore, I just disagreed.

He has helpless, powerless people to save. Spend time in the Exodus narrative to see how God rescued helpless Israel from Pharaoh.

Also, I just explained a few days how the sons of men are not totally depraved in the qualitative sense. But the unregenerate are totally depraved in the quantitative sense since their entire heart, with all its faculties, is corrupt.

Even so...none of the unregenerate "practices goodness" (per the Darby translation) because the fear of the Lord is not in them. Only those who fear the Lord will practice goodness. I proved all this from the proverbs and other wisdom books. The Fear of the Lord is a NC gift that affects the disposition of heart and moves the heart toward loving God and being faithful to him.

Again. What is it that God saves if we are in fact TOTALLY depraved?
Your shoes? Your shirt?

If the term TOTALLY depraved were correct?
There would be nothing to save!

We can agree that our bodies are not saved by God. We have been crucified with Christ.

You guys really have not thought this through, and don't want to.
Because you all are too busy enjoying the upper hand your depraved doctrine affords you to have...
You see. Those with a common thread in their sin natures will seek to bond around doctrines that make them feel free and justified to be their "old selves" in whitewashed clothing.

The truth can make you free.
Or, if exposed by it.
Making you pay.

Get off your high horses.
Let's get to the truth that TULIP only serves to block getting to it.


..........

CONVICTION OF SIN by the Holy Spirit (God's WORD TO ME) was the beginning of FAITH which is always based in God's WORD. followed by Repentance, and calling on GOd for salvation.

Isaiah 1:4-5 Alas, O sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a brood of evildoers, children of depravity! They have forsaken the LORD; they have despised the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on Him. Why do you want more beatings? Why do you keep rebelling? Your head has a massive wound, and your whole heart is afflicted.

What I bolded above is patently false and is a result of your unsanctified reasoning. What do you think the gracious gift of a NEW HEART is all about!? In your world, a "new heart" is just so many words? A new heart with the gift of the Holy Spirit within is just so much chopped liver to you? If God can raise the physical dead, can he not raise the spiritually dead?

And for your info, the truth has indeed set me free in more ways that one. By God's grace I don't bring carnal, unbiblical, perverse presuppositions to bear upon the scriptures. I just allow God's word to say what it says -- even though at times, I don't understand fully what a text is saying. With prayer and over time, God will give me understanding; for He is the source of all knowledge, wisdom and understanding.

And who here has any "upper hand"? What do I or anyone else here have, except what we have received from the hand of God!? I have absolutely nothing to boast about except the Cross of Christ and God's incomprehensible love for me. I can't even boast about loving God because he loved me first!

And one more thing Mr. BackSlapper and ChestPounder -- what part of Mk 10:18 don't you get? Or what part of Rom 7:18 can't you understand? Why are you prone to think of yourself as being something much better than what scripture portrays sinners? When Jesus said that no man is good, isn't he also saying that the sons of men are evil which is the antithesis to good? Why do you think that your human nature isn't evil? And since you, apparently, don't think of yourself as evil, then you must think of yourself as being a pretty good Joe.

Romans 7:18a

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh.

Note! Nothing good dwells in his flesh! Not in his soul!

Your soul is not flesh.

Unless, you're a meat head.

The term "flesh" is used metaphorically in order to contrast with the Spirit. And this kind of use makes perfectly good sense since Adam lost the Spirit of Life that was within him after he sinned. As many translations rightly render the word "flesh" to be the sinful nature. What is evil is not outside of us, it's what's INSIDE us that is totally depraved. And our skin is not within us, for your info.

Also our flesh (the skin that hangs off our bones) is not evil! To say that our skin is evil you would have to also believe that Jesus' skin was evil as well.

What a horrible, superficial, phony-baloney belief system you have if you actually believe that our skin is evil. Jesus clearly taught that what COMES OUT OF US IS WHAT DEFILES US! Maybe your skin comes out of you, but mine does not come out of me.

By the way, Mr. Skin Man...the fallen angels don't have any skin hanging off their bones because they don't have any bones. And yet, they are the most evil entities in this universe. Therefore, the evil they think, speak and do must also come from within them.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,
and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— Rom 5:12


The reason our flesh is fallen, is that when Adam fell, so did his production of sperm.
The defect of the sin nature found in our flesh comes from Adam's falling.

It says? All sinned?
The Greek means, in one moment in time we all sinned.
For Adam sealed our fate biologically when he sinned!

And, on the other hand...

The ovum of the woman does not in itself contain the defect of the sin nature. Gen 3:15
That is why God was able to utilize the ovum of Mary to produce a sinless body for Jesus.
For the Holy Spirit provided the necessary genetic material needed to fertilize that ovum!

And, that also means? Every woman's ovum are free of the genetically defective sin nature!
For it's through the man's sperm that the sin nature is passed down.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man...

That is true, even though the woman became the first fallen human!

Speculation time:

If Adam resisted and refused to eat?
And, had children with Eve?
Those children would have been born without a sin nature!
But, that never happened.

No. You proved nothing by quoting the Bible. You built a case for your perspective and expressed your opinion on what you think certain scriptures mean. You refuse to listen open-mindedly to any alternative perspectives that threaten your own systematic. You refuse to acknowledge any possibility that other reasoned points that contradict your points could be even partly correct. Nothing you have cited has in any way disannulled the idea that a person who is "not good" because all facets of their being (body, mind, soul, strength, spirit, enotions) are imperfect, (Omni-faceted Imperfection) may nevertheless be capable of doing some degree of good by acting from areas in their being, areas within those facets, that are not Totally Depraved.

What good will it do?

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Timothy 3:7

Only learning knowledge *about* the truth. But, not the truth.

Simple question.
Corrupted by who?