Understanding God’s election

I guess we disagree. Thanks for the discussion.

So it would appear, although that bothers me greatly, because I am concerned about us trying to answer Jesus' prayer for unity in JN 17. If you or anyone else wants to join us on the Hermeneutics thread, that is our main quest, so I hope to see you there.

So doubting God and his revelation is the normal way to live the Christian life? If we can't be certain, then that leaves room for doubt. Are you certain that Jesus Christ is the Son of God -- the very God of God, yet at the same time fully human, as well? Or how can one be confident of some truth and yet be doubtful at the same time? For your info, one of the definitions for "confidence" is CERTAINTY. You are making a false dichotomy between the two.

Also, your argument implies that faith/trust is irrational because we don't see by sight. But this is not the case at all. The Christian Faith is rational by nature because we "see" by God's revelation -- from both within us and from without us. The very warp 'n' woof of the gift of eternal life is having a true knowledge of God (Jn 17:3). We do not trust God is some kind of empty vacuum, anymore than we trust people in this world. The world at large does not trust people that it doesn't know. The world does not run on the principle of Good Faith. Rather, people trust who they do know. It's no different between us and God. God has not called us to believe on him with an irrational faith. God's gift of faith is not irrational. Therefore, true believers can be confident in God and his Word.

They argue against what scripture plainly teaches in the hope that their own version of the gospel will prevail.

The Spirit is the one who brings the unity. We are only tasked to maintain that which He brings.

If your belief were to be correct that salvation depends solely upon an individual's actions and choices, then what would the fate be of those who will die mentally incapable, or very young, or infirm, or unexposed to Christianity, where, because of factors outside of their control, and just from the luck of the draw, they would be unable to make the correct "choice"? Do you know of any other gospel where their sin would be forgiven without the need to become "Christian"? If not, then they would suffer an outcome just as severe and even more unfair than the one you assign to God, where instead, the choice is His alone.

Rufus,

No, doubting God and his revelation is NOT the normal way to live the Christian life.

Yes, if we can't be certain, then that leaves room for doubt--and faith.

I have sufficient confidence that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and also fully human.

One can be confident of some truth and yet be doubtful because that is how free will and faith are actualized.

I am quite confident that Paul does not mean absolute certainty, because that requires infinite knowledge.

My argument implies that faith/trust is rational because we employ our God-given reasoning ability to exercise it.

Therefore, anyone can be confident in God and his Word.

Yes, and the way God's Spirit brings unity per Paul is in EPH 4:11-13:

Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

A good point. Both built up in the faith...empirical knowledge...and the knowledge of the Son of God...experiential knowledge. It's not either/or, but both.

And Abraham obeyed the laws of God.

There are those who wrongly imagine there was no law of God until after the flood.

The first law was spoken by God in Eden. Thou shalt not eat....

Define "sufficient". I, on the other hand, am certain, by virtue of God's grace, that Jesus is who he claimed to be and who scripture, generally, portrays him to be.

You have chapter and verse for what I bolded in red?

Amen! This is how unity is increased--one agreement at a time--as scripture is harmonized with scripture in our interpretation.

Perhaps now we can move on to the next subject on the thread devoted to that quest. Hope to see you there!

Abraham believed God. He didn't always act faithfully.
I'm not sure of what laws you believe Abraham kept, as there were no laws to keep.

Actually, I have a lot:

An issue frequently cited as a stumbling-blocks to belief in the NT God for some people is reconciling God’s power and love with the fact of evil and its consequence. A person—even a theist—might think that God would not permit evil, suffering and hell to exist. People who are mystified by evil and repulsed by its punishment do not realize that the essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (GN 1:26-27; robot or responsible)?

God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons. Even if God were to prove Himself to skeptics by means of a miracle, they might believe for awhile and then as their memories began to fade they would probably think that God had died and revert to their former doubt—necessitating an endless string of miracles (recapitulating the story of the Israelites on the way to Canaan after the exodus from Egypt).

However, for reasons we may understand only sufficiently rather than completely, God designed reality so that experiencing His presence is less than compelling, so that even Jesus (God the Son) on the cross cried out “My God [the Father], why have you forsaken [taken God the Spirit from] me?” (MT 27:46, PS 51:11) This phenomenon is sometimes called “distanciation”, because we experience God as distant from us and “unknown” (ACTS 17:23), even though He is close or immanent, “for in Him we live and move and have our being” (ACTS 17:28). Distanciation is not forsaken.

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word. God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.

Circumcision. Sacrifice of Isaac.

Good grief man are you ever right?

Gen 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Thanks. Do you think Abraham obeyed because it was a requirement of the covenant or because he was a partaker in the covenant?

Hey Sunshine.

Secular histories of mankind commonly begin with the civilization at the Sumerian city-state of Ur in Mesopotamia, where archaeologists have found the earliest written language (pictographs on clay tablets) and wheeled vehicles. In India, the Indus river valley had large settlements at Harappa and Mohenjo-daro, while in Egypt the first historic dynasty was established by Menes when he united the Upper and Lower Nile cultures. (The first pyramid was built about 3100, and the Great Pyramid was built about 2600.) The Sumerians were conquered by the Akkadian, Sargon (c. 2270). About this time India was being taken over by Aryans from Turkestan, who invaded through the Khyber Pass. Also, the Minoan civilization was developing on the Aegean island of Crete. Very little is known about the people in Europe, Russia, China, Oceana, America and most of Africa during this period. By 2230 the Sumerians had thrown off the Akkadians and formed a second empire with its capital at the thriving seaport of Ur.

The Mesopotamians were polytheistic, but out of this culture Abram was called to worship the one true God (monotheism) in Canaan (according to GN 12:1-2). Genesis says that after a sojourn in Egypt because of a famine, Abram returned to Hebron, where he gave a tithe to a priest named Melchizedek of Salem (later Jerusalem), who served him bread and wine (GN 14:18-20). Thirteen years later God changed his name to Abraham and commanded that every male would be circumcised. After having a son, Ishmael, by his slave, Hagar, Sarah bore Isaac, beginning a rivalry that has lasted through the ages. On one occasion God tested Abraham’s faith by determining whether he was willing to sacrifice Isaac, which some see as foreshadowing God’s provision of Messiah (GN 22:9-12).

That's a really good question. I started looking at Genesis to determine if Abraham would have been saved if he had disobeyed God, but got sidetracked