I was wondering who believes you can get unsaved.

Oh the irony.

This isn't a false teaching though, depending on how it's taught. The Idea that you get saved and can now sin as much as you want with no consequence is as false as it can be, no question. The the Idea that once the Creator of everything gives you grace and draws you in, because of the price Jesus paid, the crucifixion and having the Fathers just wrath poured out on Him so that His perfect justice and mercy could coexist without contradiction, so that His PERFECT righteousness could be applied to you. This is how He can resurrect our dead spirits and reconcile them to His Spirit in power, to open our eyes, to lift the veil so that we can see the truth and KNOW that Jesus is the ONLY way to Him and peace with God, not only that but you now KNOW in your soul that God is real and Jesus is His Son.

What you are suggesting when you say that we can lose our salvation, from my perspective, is that you can be transformed in truth by the AWESOME POWER OF GOD, and then just wave it off and say "the truth's not for me". I reject this for two reasons, #1 scripture clearly tells us it's true, even goes into detail about the whole Rom 6 thing "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
Directly addressing those who think "I'm saved and can now sin"
#2 my experience contradicts it SO much.

How is it we can keep from sinning and living in sin like before? Only by His power, by the power of the Spirit that guides us to all truth and disciplines us when we do make mistakes. Trust me on that one. But this is also why He gets ALL credit and glory for anything I might do good in His name. He gets ALL the glory and I get none, because I'd NEVER have done any of these things before He transformed me. His power drew me in, His power transformed me into a new creature that even has the ability to please Him, and His power that keeps me as His word promises. So to me when I hear that salvation can be lost, I hear it as a direct insult to His power and the power I experienced when He saved me. So maybe you want to argue that you'd walk away from Jesus after seeing what He did for us with spiritual clarity, then you can go ahead and argue that. You give men too much credit and God far too little in my opinion. The power of God I've seen I HAVE to testify that I could never walk away from, but I don't say that in boast. It's only by His power I could never do this, I could never "choose to walk away" from my King. Like Peter said when Jesus asked him if he wanted to go as well, and Peter said "where am I going to go?" You don't get born again into the truth of all things and decide to return to the deception, it just can't work that way. If you leave Him, you were never truly of Him.<----100% Truth.

2 Thess. 2:14- we are “called” by the gospel, not a direct operation of the Holy Spirit. This is The Bible definition of “being called.” Men have a different definition. Who do you think is right?

In Acts 8, Phillip “preached Christ” to the Samaritans. They “heeded” the things he preached because they heard him and saw the miracles he did. Verses 5-6. They believed Phillip because he preached the gospel to them and both men and women were baptized. Verse 12.Nothing is said about the Holy Spirit coming upon them and causing them to believe. They believed because they heard the gospel preached by Phillip and saw the miracles.

Then Peter and John went to Samaria to pray for the new believers so that they might receive the Holy Spirit. Verse 16-FOR AS YET HE HAD FALLEN ON NONE OF THEM, only they had been baptized (water) in the name of Jesus. (See Acrs 2:38). Does that sound like you have to have the Holy Spirit in order to understand and believe? These people did not have to and neither does anyone today that hears the gospel preached. We are called by the gospel, not by some miraculous act of the Spirit. So says 2 Thess. 2:14.

So, if, as you say, the Holy Spirit must enter into us to open our consciousness where exactly in the Bible does it say that?
[

QUOTE="Jimbone, post: 5399207, member: 204077"]This isn't a false teaching though, depending on how it's taught. The Idea that you get saved and can now sin as much as you want with no consequence is as false as it can be, no question. The the Idea that once the Creator of everything gives you grace and draws you in, because of the price Jesus paid, the crucifixion and having the Fathers just wrath poured out on Him so that His perfect justice and mercy could coexist without contradiction, so that His PERFECT righteousness could be applied to you. This is how He can resurrect our dead spirits and reconcile them to His Spirit in power, to open our eyes, to lift the veil so that we can see the truth and KNOW that Jesus is the ONLY way to Him and peace with God, not only that but you now KNOW in your soul that God is real and Jesus is His Son.

What you are suggesting when you say that we can lose our salvation, from my perspective, is that you can be transformed in truth by the AWESOME POWER OF GOD, and then just wave it off and say "the truth's not for me". I reject this for two reasons, #1 scripture clearly tells us it's true, even goes into detail about the whole Rom 6 thing "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
Directly addressing those who think "I'm saved and can now sin"
#2 my experience contradicts it SO much.

How is it we can keep from sinning and living in sin like before? Only by His power, by the power of the Spirit that guides us to all truth and disciplines us when we do make mistakes. Trust me on that one. But this is also why He gets ALL credit and glory for anything I might do good in His name. He gets ALL the glory and I get none, because I'd NEVER have done any of these things before He transformed me. His power drew me in, His power transformed me into a new creature that even has the ability to please Him, and His power that keeps me as His word promises. So to me when I hear that salvation can be lost, I hear it as a direct insult to His power and the power I experienced when He saved me. So maybe you want to argue that you'd walk away from Jesus after seeing what He did for us with spiritual clarity, then you can go ahead and argue that. You give men too much credit and God far too little in my opinion. The power of God I've seen I HAVE to testify that I could never walk away from, but I don't say that in boast. It's only by His power I could never do this, I could never "choose to walk away" from my King. Like Peter said when Jesus asked him if he wanted to go as well, and Peter said "where am I going to go?" You don't get born again into the truth of all things and decide to return to the deception, it just can't work that way. If you leave Him, you were never truly of Him.<----100% Truth.[/QUOTE]



Too many scriptures, and parables (Lost sheep Luke 15), prodigal son) and more that teach a Child of God can be lost for that doctrine to be 100% truth.

Its always the same 1 Gods word is preached ,

2 people hear

3 it some believe and act upon it , some don’t believe it so they of course don’t act in it it’s not something they believe .

There’s an order the gospel has to be heard 1 and 2 then a person can believe it and respond

It’s God speaking the truth and imploring mankind to believe calling us to come home to him he’s spoken the way to us and said , invited us to believe it’s not God forcing one to believe and another to reject he spoke to the world salvation and also informed of condemnation he’s given mankind once condemned to die , a choice to live

God speaks , then a man responds or doesn’t based on his belief

who gets the praise and glory ???? The one who suffered , was spit upon , mocked , beaten and eventually nailed to a wooden crucifix where his blood was spilled for our sins

it doesn’t take glory from God when a man accepts what he said to repent of or to do and takes accountability for that , it glorifies God when a sinner repents and does good in his name

God gets all glory and praise ….mankind has to accept what he said and respond to have what he promised

If we have free will to choose salvation or reject Christ in the first place, we also have free will to choose to be faithful to him or to leave and return to the world. God is the one who gives salvation and HE has made it CONDITIONAL upon our “believing and obeying Him to be saved and then CONDITIONAL upon our enduring and being faithful to him til death. Rev.2:10, Hebrews 10:36. This is completely “fair” on God’s part because He has plainly layed down the requirements in the New Testament both for what we must do to be saved in the first place and what we must do to remain saved til the end of our lives. God is the one who gives salvation to us and He certainly has the right to make “conditions.”

2 people listen to a gospel message together. 1 is saved, and the other remains unsaved. What accounts for the difference? The choice of the person or the influence of the word of God or lack of it upon the person?

When a person makes a bad choice after being properly informed …..is it the fault of the person informing them if they don’t listen or accept the information ?

When we sin do we say “ well god didn’t influence me enough it’s not my fault “

Who lifted Moses arm when God spoke here ?

1 “And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.


2 And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God spoke , moses acted because he believed and what God had already said and attatched to the actuon of lifting his hand happened as it was spoken to the believer Moses

it seems a lot simpler than your making it

look at Gods word first look at its power

“And God said, Let there be light:

and there was light.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s the same with Moses only God speaks it through him adding Moses nto what he said “ moses lift your hand and this will happen “ and Moses obeyed and it was so …..

God didn’t force Moses to do anything he o my spoke to him moses acted upon what God said and it was so …..that’s how the gospel is exactly how it is

God speaks wonderful things and those who hear and believe if they actually do believe are going to act based o my upon the belief

Im not sure brother it seems your whipping doughnuts

What I'm doing is making a distinction between the actions of man and the actions of God in salvation and what is their place in the salvation of men, and seeing how each comports to scripture.

John 1 says that those who believe do so according to the will of God and not through their own effort. I'm trying to determine if this is your understanding or not.

From your answer, it seems you don't. You seem to be saying that men choose apart from an internal influence of God.

.
Sheep are pretty good at bonding with their shepherd. For example Jesus
said:

● John 10:3-6 . .The sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by
name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on
ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But
they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him
because they do not recognize a stranger's voice.

Now if I'm reading that right, it appears to me that Jesus' sheep need not
fret themselves wondering who to follow. No, when they hear his voice, they
each know for themselves he's the one without needing somebody to point
him out.

It's interesting that the sheep seem not to go by facial recognition, nor are
they guided by the clothes their shepherd has on. No, it's his voice that
connects with them.

Sheep aren't the only ones. There's a raccoon that comes thru our backyard
whom I've routinely fed and watered for a number of years. Even after all
this time that critter still keeps a wary eye on me until I speak to it with the
words: "Hey little coon, don't bite me." Then it calms right down.

Curiously the rapture per 1Thess 4:13-18 is voice-activated. It won't begin
to unfold till Christ begins shouting. I suspect not everyone on earth will
react because only his own are attuned to his voice. No doubt people around
them will be puzzled why all of a sudden they're looking up.
_

Too many scriptures, and parables (Lost sheep Luke 15), prodigal son) and more that teach a Child of God can be lost for that doctrine to be 100% truth.[/QUOTE]
They can wander off,of course. The parable of the shepherd and his one lost sheep tells us while the sheep may go astray the shepherd will always bring them home.

There is a difference between losing faith ourselves,and God retracting his free irrevocable gift of grace and salvation.

Irrevocable.

Being God bestowed this free grace gift of his own accord and said it can not be revoked,that is the truth.

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus,Yeshua,is The Word OF God. He is that good news.

Only God, Holy Spirit, can lead us out of our darkness,the world mindset. We cannot choose. No one can come to Jesus(God) unless God , The Word,calls them.

People were turning to the Savior before the Bible was written.

Only the way you look at them. They ALL fit my theology tight as a glove, the verses you site and the verses I site, they ALL fit my theology while it's you that seems to throw half them away. There are WAY more verses that say we are saved and kept to the end by God than there are verses that can be seen as warnings about losing salvation. But again you completely discount, ignore, and do not mention the little factor that is part of the equation. The effect the power of God has on us. You just ignore that, and to me it almost comes across like maybe you discount and ignore this HUGE part of it because you've never experienced it. I'm sure that come across like I'm assuming and attacking your salvation status because we disagree, but that's not what I'm trying to do. I used to believe the exact same thing when I was first saved. I thought the same things about the same verses. I didn't think Hebrews could be any clearer on the issue, but that was when I had a false belief about the power of "our choice".

I thought of it like this, "If I am free to make my choice with my "free" will and I choose Jesus and He saves me, am I then made a slave? I thought that would be an evil thing because slavery is bad, so I have to be able to choose to walk away the same as when I came. Right?

Nope, I didn't start free, I started a slave of sin and I didn't "come to God and do my part and "ask Jesus into my heart". I also didn't choose God. When the mess really hit the fan and I was at my lowest I decided God wasn't even real because He wasn't helping me how I thought I should be helped. If I did any of this to be saved then I have reason to boast. This includes the sacred "choice".
It just so happens that while I was wrestling with this issue it dawned on me, "I didn't even make the choice when I was saved". Like I said, at my lowest and after a false conversion when I did "make the choice" like you are teaching, I responded to the alter call, I went up front and repeated the prayer with all my heart, was declared saved then baptized by a pastor. Thought I was saved and am sure you would have told me I was too. I did everything just like it's taught, but I did not KNOW Him. When I hit my knees for real, when He brought me too my knees, at the time I didn't even believe He was real anymore. I wasn't mad at Him or anti-God, but knew He couldn't help me. When I hit my knees in repentance seeing my life and glory for what is truly is, that was when I "quit" my way. Didn't even know what happen. The next day it wasn't until lunchtime that the truth hit me, after 2 years of incontrollable suicidal thoughts every 5 minutes of every day, it hit me. "I haven't thought about killing myself all day!!!!"
In this moment by the power of God and the truth of His word I knew 2 things #1 whatever this was, God did it. #2 Jesus the Christ is His Son.

So see in my experience when "I" made the choice it meant nothing, but when God drew me in and saved me, it was EVERYTHING. I'm no longer spiritually dead and I'm reconcile to God, reconnected to His Spirit by His power. Now my point with all this is, this is what you have to completely ignore this to come to the "you can lose salvation" conclusion. So God rips your spirit from His again if we don't obey well enough? He doesn't have the power or foresight to keep us or to know who will throw His grace back in His face? Again I don't want to act like I know anything about anyone else's relationship with God, I also know first hand that you can be saved for real and believe this, however I used to qualify it every time I talked about it like this "I don't know how anyone ever could walk away from Him, I never could, but I do believe that I could choose to if I wanted". Well I was wrong, it's no more your choice in as it is your choice out, it's ALL by His power and if you truly know His power it will lead you to all truth. This is the truth brother. Why do you argue for a weak and ignorant God that saves people and doesn't have the power to keep them, and doesn't know who will stay saved or not. Pointless, nonsensical, and makes God a pointless, ignorant, weak cosmic probation office? Why do you argue that you could walk away from the King of glory?

You don't have free will. You're a slave to sin or a slave to Him. That's it. Our will is ALWAY guided by our nature, and there are only 2. Disconnected from God, or through Jesus reconciled to Him. You never have a "FREE" will. At least not according to His word.

They can wander off,of course. The parable of the shepherd and his one lost sheep tells us while the sheep may go astray the shepherd will always bring them home.

There is a difference between losing faith ourselves,and God retracting his free irrevocable gift of grace and salvation.

Irrevocable.

Being God bestowed this free grace gift of his own accord and said it can not be revoked,that is the truth.

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus,Yeshua,is The Word OF God. He is that good news.

Only God, Holy Spirit, can lead us out of our darkness,the world mindset. We cannot choose. No one can come to Jesus(God) unless God , The Word,calls them.

People were turning to the Savior before the Bible was written.[/QUOTE]
The lost sheep are the LOST, not the saved. The parodical son? Really? You know that parable was to the Pharisees and the older brother passing judgement on the younger while the Father forgave him was the main point right? The younger son was almost a parody of the worst a son could ever be to make a point. It wasn't so we could all relate to the bad son who is forgiven, it was for the Pharisees to be warned that there judgement of Jesus and others wasn't righteous or right. It also ends never saying if the older brother was saved or not. A warning for them passing unrighteous judgment, not losing salvation. Sorry only have time for the one now.

nope I’m saying the “ internal influence “ is when you hear and accept the word of God that’s where faith is given when we hear and don’t reject it simple

when we accept the truth that’s when faith works.

a man has always been able to choose God doesn’t make us he tells us the truth just like this

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭

God doesn’t then “ influence “ one person to believe and act nd then another person he doesn’t “ influence “ them that’s not how God is he isn’t like that he’s like above he speaks the truth about life and death offering anyone and everyone who hears a choice between life and death

then they believe or they don’t not because God makes one believe and another not to that’s not how God is . He’s the same to every person they don’t respond to him the same but he’s spoken to all of us in the gospel .

Life and death has been sent into the world. God doesn’t make one person to be saved regardless of thier own actions and send another to hell because of thier actions that’s just simply not how he is. He is no respect or of one man over another everyone is on the exact same boat and have the same invite.

It isn’t then that God “ influences one person to believe and not another “ that’s not his character

When you read of mans judgement it’s just pure Godly truth spoken tonus beforehand we can adjust before it’s too late . But many many don’t believe it like for instance

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

brother that’s how God influences people but if we reject it it won’t help we’re rejecting the way God “ influences “ us by simply telling us “ your all doomed and headed to hell , repent and believe the gospel and be saved !!”

This isn’t complex Jesus lives and died for us taught us bout eternal life in his kingdom

many think it’s silly to believe things we can’t see ….others believe what Jesus said and promised . It isn’t because God rbe led one but not another it’s because one accepts the word the other doesn’t again not because God did it but because they love the world thier hearts are occupied and have no room for Jesus it’s not his fault if someone doesn’t believe him

Thanks as always for the discussion.

The same brother would you do me a favor and just simply consider this is where I’m coming from

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that is preached to “ pursuade “ people to bring them to this mindset

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so that when they appear before Jesus on judgement day believing will have saved them but what if the one who says “ I’ll never be judged by my deeds nope “ ? Do you see how it’s unbelief that’s getting them but if they would repent ( change the position of thier mind towards god ) and believe his word make what he said what they believe this is what’s going to change them it’s how he is “working in us to Will and do according to his Will “

“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

tbat is what changes us builds faith ect brings obedience all that stuff that the Bible talks so much about that freedom from sins dominion that we can actually have if we accept the truth especially the ones we have a hard time acknolwedging that’s the only thing that’s going to change our convictions over to what he taught us to believe and that’s the process of faith being built in us

I understand your position. It's a popular position.
My understanding of the judgment of deeds is concerning rewards in heaven, and not whether heaven is one's home. That is, our works either earn reward or are burned up, and not that we are rewarded or burned up.

Would it be your position of scriptire specifacally says it’s about eternal life or damnation ?

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, ( pretty plain and forward ) tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

would you at least agree that Paul’s saying “this is about eternal life and wrath ? Here’s niv so we have both

“But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.


God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:

of course Paul’s o my preaching the gospel as Jesus before him

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

note the connection to what they did and thier end and also the same thing paul taught the church we have to hear the truth brother but sometimes when it’s preached we refuse to accept it because we already know better ….

“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Notice some are thrown into the fire others appear on the new earth in the following chapter

theres no teaching in scripture that’s different regarding Gods judgement of all mankind but thanks to Jesus we already have Gods eternal judgements that we can believe or sadly reject and find out later even though we rejected it , it was the truth

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what I was meaning to say is we all think we know about God but then we start to hear his word

Sure I believe people are going to hell,and that as a result of his actions. I was referring to 1 Corinthians 3:12-15.

That’s about peoples ministry sayong if the preacher establishes it on the foundation laid by Christ in the gospel even if thier work isn’t great theyll be spared as one barely escaping the flames look at “what he’s saying “

“Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. ( they labored and god What n teased the church )

(notice who he’s talking about )So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:5-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they were arguing constantly about doctrine oauos taking to the teachers and ministers among them saying even if your church fails you’ll be saved still because your preaching on the foundation Jesus laid

On the other hand those chapters I was quoting are specifically about the judgement and how we all have to face that day and how it will be administered both eternal life , and wrath

But how would that pertain or change the teachings in the Bible that are about judgement day ? And whether doing good or evil matters to the outcome ?