God's Elect: This Ends Any Debate

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Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#61
Dec 18, 2021
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#61
DavyP said:
No use in discussing this with you since you obviously want to deny the Hebrews 6 Scripture, and many other warning Scriptures against falling away by the Apostles...
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I did not deny it, I just interpret it correctly and in context.

the context is returning to law.

the law stated you could lose salvation, you could fall away, and need to be resaved again (by animal sacrifice)

Heb 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.
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for it is impossible.. what is impossible.

1. If they fall away - to renew them to repentance.
2. Saying that a person can fall away puts christ to open shame. They are tryign to crucify christ once again, His sacrifice was one time thing, and as he said it is finished

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
KJV
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Notice the one part.. It is NIGH or near to being cursed (you should try a modern bible that has modern language. but it still means the same, near to being cursed)

if they are near to being cursed. and not totally cursed. then they never lost salvation..

You should look at 1 cor 3 about the judgment seat. where again, Blessings or rewards are in question. and even those who have nothing, are still saved, even as through fire.




1 Tim 4:1-2
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
KJV

2 Tim 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
KJV
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This is happening today. people are nto losing salvation. but the churches are losing their people (people die and are not replaced)

nice try my friend..

But you need to study God resists the proud. you should take heed
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
#62
Nov 21, 2020
6,332
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#62
DavyP said:
What it means is that men love to create their own versions of God's Plan of Salvation through His Son instead of actually sticking to what God's written Word says.

Per Apostle Paul in Romans 6, we as believers on Jesus Christ are to 'reckon' ourselves as having been buried with Christ by baptism into death...

Rom 6:3-7
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
KJV

Paul's Message above is for us believers to RECKON ourselves as saved, but obviously our resurrection has not literally happened yet, for we are still living in these flesh bodies of sin. That means we are STILL... subject to sin, and must follow Apostle John's Message in 1 John 1 about repenting of future sin we may fall into, to stay in our walk with Christ. That's different than Hyper-Grace preachers pushing their "you're saved and can no longer sin" false theories.
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If they fall away they were never saved.
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
#63
Nov 21, 2020
6,332
557
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#63
DavyP said:
No use in discussing this with you since you obviously want to deny the Hebrews 6 Scripture, and many other warning Scriptures against falling away by the Apostles...

Heb 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
KJV

1 Tim 4:1-2
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
KJV

2 Tim 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
KJV
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They were never saved.
 
D

DavyP

Active member
#65
Aug 11, 2024
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#65
dougcho said:
You are spot on! ... except IMO, some pastors are themselves deceived,
so perhaps are not as guilty as many others whose
big priority is to build up a "successful" church ...
which pays the mortgage, utilities, many salaries, etc.
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Yes, and there's some pastors that know exactly what they are doing, and serve occultism, being members of secret fraternities like the Masonic Lodge and such.
 
D

dougcho

Member
#66
Oct 28, 2024
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#66
p_rehbein said:
You willingly chose to turn your back, and willingly chose to return.
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Yes, even the elect-chosen-called have the free will to backslide.
However, many NT verses promise that God will get them to heaven.
The Lord is God Almighty, all-powerful, etc.
and He knows how to accomplish His will.
 
D

DavyP

Active member
#67
Aug 11, 2024
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USA
#67
Like Apostle Paul said...

Phil 2:12
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
KJV

Apostle Paul would never... have said that above if we could never sin anymore after belief on Jesus Christ. And those who heed men's false doctrine by saying one who does... still sin was never saved in the first place, is just vain talking.
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
#69
Nov 21, 2020
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#69
@dougcho

Yes, even the elect-chosen-called have the free will to backslide.
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Not from the faith, thats impossible,but they can perhaps backslide into immorality or something like David did, but chances are God will restore them even from that.
 
M

MeowFlower

Well-known member
#70
Aug 25, 2024
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#70
Everlasting-Grace said:
calvinism has its issues also. double predestination and lack of free will is damning to the character of God..

But I agree. we should nto label people. Not everyone who believes in grace through faith is calvinist. and nto everyone who thinks salvation is conditional is armenian
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The Bible tells us we have free choice but God's will makes our way so that we think we choose. In reality God sets our steps.
 
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Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#71
Dec 18, 2021
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#71
DavyP said:
Like Apostle Paul said...

Phil 2:12
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
KJV

Apostle Paul would never... have said that above if we could never sin anymore after belief on Jesus Christ. And those who heed men's false doctrine by saying one who does... still sin was never saved in the first place, is just vain talking.
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keep them coming, I will keep showing you the error of your ways

Work out YOUR SALVATION. Ie, what you have, work it out. Be a light in the world.

Not work to earn salvation.

But nice try
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#73
Dec 18, 2021
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#73
MeowFlower said:
The Bible tells us we have free choice but God's will makes our way so that we think we choose. In reality God sets our steps.
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Well you have to chose. If you do not. You will be lost. And have no one to blame but yourself. Jesus died foreveryone so that whoever believes..
 
M

MeowFlower

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#76
Aug 25, 2024
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#76
Everlasting-Grace said:
If you think fatalistically, then you would be in error

God draws all people to himself. Not everyone will respond
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I think context is key. If we accept what Jesus taught as to how we come to him, not unless the father calls, leads, us, then all people would apply to those whom God called.

If we accept what Paul taught as he was told by Jesus to reveal to us, then the natural man, all people, are unable to understand the things of God. They are foolishness to him. The things of God are spiritually discerned. Which Paul,Jesus, tells us is only overcome by intercession of the Holy Spirit.

All people would then be subjective as pertains to those aforementioned God given preconditions to understanding his Good News. Hence why we are known as God's Elect.

The Elect "of" God.
Rather than those who elect , choose, to follow God.
 
J

j55

Active member
#77
Sep 29, 2024
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#77
DavyP said:
One of the most important Bible Chapters that reveals what God's election is about is with Lord Jesus' prayer in John 17 just prior to His being delivered up to be crucified.

Jesus revealed 2 different groups of believers in John 17:

1. His elect Apostles, prophets, patriarchs. Jesus showed The Father originally owned them, and gave them to Jesus. He thus will often directly intervene in their lives to serve Him. This is why Lord Jesus directly intervened with Saul (Apostle Paul), converting him on the road to Damascus when Saul was persecuting the Church (Acts 9). The word apostle means to be 'sent'. Jesus said He sent these into the world, and that they are not of the world. Likewise with Jonah, he tried to get out of his duty that God gave him, but God made him fulfill it. Ownership, that's what this group is about. He already owned them before this present world. These represent Christ's "very elect". Calvinists often wrongly... apply this group to every believer, but that is not what Lord Jesus showed in John 17.

2. Those who must believe by using their own free will represent the majority of believers on The Father and The Son. This second group Jesus revealed is by their believing by His Apostle's word (i.e., preaching of The Gospel). These still can use their free will to fall away, and God will allow it and will not intervene unless they repent and ask Him.

Then Jesus prayed that BOTH groups would become 'one' in Him and The Father.

This means that the 1st group, His "very elect", cannot... fall away, because He already owns them.

But the 2nd group of believers can fall away by their own choice, and they only become part of His election while they remain walking in Christ Jesus.

This is why man's 'Once Saved, Always Saved' doctrine is not Biblical. For the majority of us, we must... remain walking in Christ Jesus until the end, and beware of being deceived by Satan and his host. This is why Christ and His Apostles, especially Apostle Paul, gave so many warnings against falling away, especially for those in the last days. It is why He warned us about the coming Antichrist-false-Messiah that must come first playing God with the power to do miracles like Jesus Christ.
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I absolutely agree. I admire your courage to tackle this controversial subject. Excellent job. Keep plowing. Peace.
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
#78
Nov 21, 2020
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#78
Everlasting-Grace said:
But he is not talking to non saved people. He is warning about those trying to go back to law..
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Its written to an assembly which no doubt has both saved and lost amongst them, like tares amongst the wheat,or vessels of dishonor among vessels of honor like 2 Tim220

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#80
Dec 18, 2021
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#80
MeowFlower said:
I think context is key. If we accept what Jesus taught as to how we come to him, not unless the father calls, leads, us, then all people would apply to those whom God called.

If we accept what Paul taught as he was told by Jesus to reveal to us, then the natural man, all people, are unable to understand the things of God. They are foolishness to him. The things of God are spiritually discerned. Which Paul,Jesus, tells us is only overcome by intercession of the Holy Spirit.

All people would then be subjective as pertains to those aforementioned God given preconditions to understanding his Good News. Hence why we are known as God's Elect.

The Elect "of" God.
Rather than those who elect , choose, to follow God.
Click to expand...
It still does not prove fatalism.

The best evidence is the book of John chapter 3. Jesus tells Nicodemus that we must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. Nicodemus seems confused so Jesus says a few things, Then Nicodemus asks Jesus. How can these things be

Jesus responds in a way that can not be countered. It is actually quite simple. even for the Lost to understand

1. He mentions Moses and the serpent. Remember, the children of Israel were getting bit by snakes, and they were getting killed. so they cried out.
2. God tells Moses to make a bronze serpent and put this on a pole
3. Moses tells all of them. If you look, you will live, if you do not, you will die.
4. People had to chose to look. they had to humble themselves. They were in sin, and defying God in lack of faith. so God sent these serpents to them. Those that chose in faith to trust God and humble self lived. those who did nto died.
5. God was glorified in those that were saved. as they did nothing to save themselves.
6. God is glorified in those who did not live, for he offered them salvation also.
7. No one deserved to be saved., they all were in sin. But God in his mercy and Grace offered them a way. those who believed lived. those who did not died.
8. Jesus said in the same way, The son of man must be lifted up. that whoever believes (looks) will never perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that again whoever believes (looks) shall never perish but live forever.
9. Again, God is glorified. because those who are saved did nto do anything to save themselves. they just trusted God.
10 He is glorified even by those who are not saved. because it was their for the taking, but they willingly rejected it.
11. As jesus said, he was not sent to judge but that the world MAY be saved.

he who believes is not condemned, He who does nto believe is condemned already.

The world is the world. Not the elect. Just like God offered the serpent to all the children of Israel. even those who died. he offers his gift to the world. even those who will suffer the second death
 
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