Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
That's because you believe you have to meet a requirement to be saved. You must perform the act of believing and get saved. The act of believing never saved anyone. The devils believed. They weren't saved. The act of believing only attests to the work that God has done in you.
It's no different than the fruit of the Spirit. You don't produce it, but you do perform it. And that's because God is at work in you both willing and doing of His good pleasure.
The same was true when you were saved. God was willing and doing in you. Read Acts 2:37. You can see His activity the day of Pentecost. He opened their ears and pricked their hearts and their volition was changed. At least for 3000. But lots more heard Peter's sermon that day. Why didn't they ask what they should do?
Acts 13:48...as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
It's no different than the fruit of the Spirit. You don't produce it, but you do perform it. And that's because God is at work in you both willing and doing of His good pleasure.
The same was true when you were saved. God was willing and doing in you. Read Acts 2:37. You can see His activity the day of Pentecost. He opened their ears and pricked their hearts and their volition was changed. At least for 3000. But lots more heard Peter's sermon that day. Why didn't they ask what they should do?
Acts 13:48...as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
-
1
- Show all
Acts 13:48
There are also a number of things that Acts 13:48 does not say. It doesn’t say one has to be ordained to believe. It doesn’t say there are “reprobates” who can’t be saved. It doesn’t say that anyone was ordained unconditionally. It does say that anyone was ordained before the foundation of the world. It doesn’t say that one was ordained by a sovereign decree. It doesn’t say that those who are ordained will believe. It doesn’t say that everyone who was ever saved was ordained to believe (Vance, Other Side of Calvinism, 347).
There are also a number of things that Acts 13:48 does not say. It doesn’t say one has to be ordained to believe. It doesn’t say there are “reprobates” who can’t be saved. It doesn’t say that anyone was ordained unconditionally. It does say that anyone was ordained before the foundation of the world. It doesn’t say that one was ordained by a sovereign decree. It doesn’t say that those who are ordained will believe. It doesn’t say that everyone who was ever saved was ordained to believe (Vance, Other Side of Calvinism, 347).
-
1
- Show all
Acts 13… In v. 42 the Gentiles “begged [Paul and Barnabas] that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.” Begging suggests devotion. They were devoted to learning about the good news of eternal life. This makes good sense in the context and it also makes a nice parallel. The Jews in Pisidian Antioch rejected the teachings of Paul and Barnabas and judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. The Gentiles, oppositely, accepted the teachings of the apostles. However, instead of saying “they judged themselves worthy of eternal life,” Luke chose to say instead that the Gentiles believed, as many as had been devoted to eternal life. (Note: the Greek puts “they believed” before the words “as many as…”) They first devoted themselves to searching out the way to eternal life and then having discovered the message (Jesus guarantees eternal life to all who simply believe in Him) they believed it (Wilkin, “As Many as were Devoted to Eternal Life Believed”).
-
1
- Show all
You're talking with a foolish angry unteachable one when they label someone a Calvinite.
It's amazing really. Anything not Armenian is Calvinism!
As if John Calvin founded the Reformation. Instead of encapsulating the entirety of the Gospel that was born due to Genesis and the fall.
And no matter how many times you wrote it, that John Calvin's teachings were preceded by others before him, the stubborn bigots don't let it sink in.
And they are bigots make no mistake. They're ignorant, unteachable,hate filled,narrow minded, and bigoted.
But.....God loves them.
They're sure of it as much as they're certain God doesn't know those who are "Calvinites".
How many actual adult Christians do you imagine post here?
Seriously.
Calvinites
It's not even a proper term for those aligned with Calvinism.
It gets old after awhile,do you agree?
It's amazing really. Anything not Armenian is Calvinism!
As if John Calvin founded the Reformation. Instead of encapsulating the entirety of the Gospel that was born due to Genesis and the fall.
And no matter how many times you wrote it, that John Calvin's teachings were preceded by others before him, the stubborn bigots don't let it sink in.
And they are bigots make no mistake. They're ignorant, unteachable,hate filled,narrow minded, and bigoted.
But.....God loves them.
They're sure of it as much as they're certain God doesn't know those who are "Calvinites".How many actual adult Christians do you imagine post here?
Seriously.
Calvinites
It's not even a proper term for those aligned with Calvinism.
It gets old after awhile,do you agree?
We do not have to meet a requirement to be saved.
It was Jesus who had to fulfill the needed requirements of God's Justice while He hung on the Cross. He paid the penalty for sins so He could take us back!
It says... God so loved the world that He gave his only-begotten Son.
Past tense! He "loved" the world!
Today we know that God does not love the world.
Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world,
love for the Father is not in them. 1 John 2:15
God does not love the world!
It says He loved the world!
When was that?
In eternity past, when He was creating the world (first in His mind) before the beginning of creation.
While He was creating mankind in his mind, he was LOVING the World He was creating! He so loved the world!
In His mind He created all men to be having the ability to love God fully,. But, He also needed to leave room for volition in order to create man in God's image. For God is sovereign. Thus, we being in God's image, man's volition is his designated area of sovereignty.
He had to allow for the fall of Adam so fallen man could be used to resolve the angelic conflict. An never ending conflict caused by Satan's insane inability to face and accept truth. Knowing full well while allowing for the fall that He would WANT the WORLD BACK!
That is why He was willing to die on the Cross to gain the access to bringing us back into His divine fold. He died on ther Cross so that He could remove all barriers caused by the fall of man that were preventing God, who is absolute holiness, from taking us back!
Understanding that?
Believing in Jesus no more warrants special favor than you taking a million dollars offered to you with no strings attached.
How could taking the money offered that way make you special or better than anyone else? You would have to be insane not to take it!
Believing in wonderful Jesus simply reveals you are sane. Not better than anyone else!
In Christ ..........
It was Jesus who had to fulfill the needed requirements of God's Justice while He hung on the Cross. He paid the penalty for sins so He could take us back!
It says... God so loved the world that He gave his only-begotten Son.
Past tense! He "loved" the world!
Today we know that God does not love the world.
Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world,
love for the Father is not in them. 1 John 2:15
God does not love the world!
It says He loved the world!
When was that?
In eternity past, when He was creating the world (first in His mind) before the beginning of creation.
While He was creating mankind in his mind, he was LOVING the World He was creating! He so loved the world!
In His mind He created all men to be having the ability to love God fully,. But, He also needed to leave room for volition in order to create man in God's image. For God is sovereign. Thus, we being in God's image, man's volition is his designated area of sovereignty.
He had to allow for the fall of Adam so fallen man could be used to resolve the angelic conflict. An never ending conflict caused by Satan's insane inability to face and accept truth. Knowing full well while allowing for the fall that He would WANT the WORLD BACK!
That is why He was willing to die on the Cross to gain the access to bringing us back into His divine fold. He died on ther Cross so that He could remove all barriers caused by the fall of man that were preventing God, who is absolute holiness, from taking us back!
Understanding that?
Believing in Jesus no more warrants special favor than you taking a million dollars offered to you with no strings attached.
How could taking the money offered that way make you special or better than anyone else? You would have to be insane not to take it!
Believing in wonderful Jesus simply reveals you are sane. Not better than anyone else!
In Christ ..........
While this post contains much truth, it doesn't address my post. But your last statement does exemplify my point. Believing in Jesus makes all the sense in the world. There must be something keeping those who don't from doing so. And whatever that is is what impinges upon the volition.
Also, who said anything about being better. God is no respecter of persons.
Also, who said anything about being better. God is no respecter of persons.
@Genez
No he is not, a natural man has a moral conscience governing right and wrong, duh, nevertheless,the natural man is dead to God dead in sin, alienated from the life of God and spiritually blind and ignorant Eph 4 18
Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
No he is not, a natural man has a moral conscience governing right and wrong, duh, nevertheless,the natural man is dead to God dead in sin, alienated from the life of God and spiritually blind and ignorant Eph 4 18
Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Again, the doctrine of election can be understood in a way that does not nullify or contradict the doctrine of all-lovingness by interpreting what is predestined to be the POS rather than souls, with God's POS understood thusly:
- There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
- Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) when they reject God’s salvation or DOD (JN 3:18).
- Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ or the way (means of providing salvation) that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11), although pre-NT truthseekers could/can learn a proto-gospel via general revelation combined with conscience.
- Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
- Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning God’s Word everyone cooperates fully with His will (RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).
The implied need is to harmonize 2TM 2:25, "Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth" with 1TM 2:3-4, "God our Savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
Is the harmonization that God grants all people repentance and saving knowledge? Or is it that God grants all people the ability to repent, but some/most choose not to do so?
Is the harmonization that God grants all people repentance and saving knowledge? Or is it that God grants all people the ability to repent, but some/most choose not to do so?
Indeed, harmonizing scripture is essential. Therefore, upon further comparison, I would suggest that the term "all" does not include every individual ever born. Rather, it refers to those identified in John 6:36-39, where it is explained the "all" are all whom the Father gives to Christ. I do not think it possible for God to desire all to become saved, yet only give certain ones to Christ to be saved, for what God desires, that He does. Neither can anyone come to Christ outside of God. So, should God have actually intended the "all" to mean He desires everyone to become saved, yet only gives some to Christ to be saved, we would then be faced with a contradiction in scripture of the highest order.
[Jhn 6:36-40 KJV]
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Here is another verse that is essentially saying the same thing as 2 Tim 2:25
[Rom 2:4 KJV]
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
[Jhn 6:36-40 KJV]
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Here is another verse that is essentially saying the same thing as 2 Tim 2:25
[Rom 2:4 KJV]
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
-
1
- Show all
Just WOW!. cv5, Genez, and Kroogz are off their rocker with rage towards an enemy of their own creation. They're very good at burning down their own strawmen, but incapable, it seems, of listening to another person or engaging in a good faith conversation with someone who believes different from them. They do not want to speak to you in a way that might actually teach or open eyes, but in condemnation, accusation, false witness, and finger pointing. It's honestly kind of sick and absolutely cult like. Almost reminds me of Steven Anderson and his approach to speaking to others. Garbage. There is no point in trying to speak to people like you that do not listen to the other side and answer what's being said, but people who tell you what you believe and then tear down that. Completely pointless and I've never seen it get this bad to the point you've dismissed other believers as unsaved children of Satan ALL based on you being both sides of the argument. There's just nothing to do with this but have two separate arguments forever.
-
1
- Show all
From a Jewish perspective, all probably also means all races of people. One sees this in 1 John 2...He is the propitiation for our sins...but also...the whole world.
Peter wasn't surprised when 3000 Jews converted at Pentecost. He and his traveling companions did seem surprised when the Spirit fell at Cornelius' house. There was a sense in Jewry that salvation was of the Jews. In the above verse as well as John 3:16, John is likely addressing this belief and dispelling it.
Peter wasn't surprised when 3000 Jews converted at Pentecost. He and his traveling companions did seem surprised when the Spirit fell at Cornelius' house. There was a sense in Jewry that salvation was of the Jews. In the above verse as well as John 3:16, John is likely addressing this belief and dispelling it.
Umm I never used the word "self-rightous" in my response so I have no idea what you are stating here.
If you believe faith at the point of salvation is a gift, in that God gave you faith/belief because without His intervention all you could do is not believe then you fall within the Calvinist camp.
The logical conclusion of gifting "saving belief" is that God saves some and not others.
If you believe faith at the point of salvation is a gift, in that God gave you faith/belief because without His intervention all you could do is not believe then you fall within the Calvinist camp.
The logical conclusion of gifting "saving belief" is that God saves some and not others.
Wow you deny the words of Jesus here, do you realize this...... by pulling one statement out James which has no connection and once again right out of context.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23
That is right is does not state .... "the gift of God is faith so you can receive eternal life."
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23
That is right is does not state .... "the gift of God is faith so you can receive eternal life."
-
1
- Show all
We observe from church history that the corruption of “grace” into an ethereal vitalizing substance, though often starting with the seemingly “innocuous” view that “grace” vitalizes the lost sinner to belief in Christ, deteriorates, almost inevitably, to the belief that the effects of grace, being sovereign or irresistible, will ultimately empower man to “repent of his sins,” to perform certain acts of righteousness, and/or to “persevere to the end” in faith and good works.
Finally, we observe that the frequent conclusion of this heresy is that, if permanent and significant lifestyle changes are not manifest in the life of a sinner, God’s “grace” was never received.
As a consequence, we believe that such a corruption of the meaning of the word “grace” historically portends a grave likelihood, if not a virtual certainty, of a theological system deteriorating into a system of salvation by “Christ plus works,” (Romans 11:6-7, Ephesians 2:8-9), the very opposite meaning of the word “Grace.”
from Clear Gospel (meaning not Calvin's Gospel)
R. Shea
Finally, we observe that the frequent conclusion of this heresy is that, if permanent and significant lifestyle changes are not manifest in the life of a sinner, God’s “grace” was never received.
As a consequence, we believe that such a corruption of the meaning of the word “grace” historically portends a grave likelihood, if not a virtual certainty, of a theological system deteriorating into a system of salvation by “Christ plus works,” (Romans 11:6-7, Ephesians 2:8-9), the very opposite meaning of the word “Grace.”
from Clear Gospel (meaning not Calvin's Gospel)
R. Shea