Grace or Works - For It Cannot Be Both

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Could you clarify the usage in OT with others such as Abraham concerning Testament/Covenant?

Testaments did not exist in ancient Israel, but they did in Roman culture. It is a Roman concept that got into the King James via the Latin Vulgate. God has only dealt with Israel through covenants. Later translations have corrected the error by correctly translating the word διαθήκη as covenant

Same word διαθήκη (diatheke) in all places. Testator means the covenant victim that was killed and separated into pieces in order for the covenant parties to walk through. The phrase "after men are dead" below is a very poor and biased translation of the two Greek words that mean "upon death"

Testator
G1303 διατίθεμαι diatithemai (d̮iy-a-tiy'-the-mai) v.
1. to put apart.

Also could you comment on Dan 9:27

27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

Is the word covenant correct? or is the one who will become the antichrist confirming something already in effect? Curious

If you would answer my question, then I will better understand your question.

MM

If you would, where do you see "testament" in relation to Abraham? I can't find it.

MM

grace is unmerited.

If it is of grace it is no longer of works. and vice versa.

People do not use grace as a license to sin.. this is nonsensical.

not by works of righteousness which we have done but by his mercy he saved us.

Anyone, who has ever been saved, has been saved before they produce 1 work.

good day

all people of all time has been under grace not works. the faith of Abraham (see romans 4)

the law was given to Israel. not as a means of salvation. but as a means of leading them to God.

In my opinion faith and works go hand in hand.
You really can't have one without the other. By faith we enter in, by our works we demonstrate our faith.
Christinanty is not a religion it's a way of life...the life. Which is found in Christ Jesus.
Abraham believed God and did those things that the Lord asked. We must act on our faith. We are challenged in our faith.
Jesus said he did not come for himself but he only does the will of the father. The will of the father is that we believe the son and the one that sent him.
We enter in by faith and are rewarded according to the good works that our faith and obedients produce.

I agree

but we can't say we are saved by works.

Sadly many want to make works works of merit. not works of love..

That's somewhat convoluted, because dare any Israelite in ancient times not seek to obey the Law of Moses, then there was no grace offered to them for salvation and forgiveness of sins. So, yes, it was indeed of Law and grace. We are under grace unto salvation, they were not in ancient times. When I express graciousness to my children, it is unto whatever goal I have predetermined. Concepts in language are important when we apply key terms.

Had not Noah obeyed the Lord to do the work of building the ark, he may very well have drowned after missing out on the grace unto physical life... The grace of being saved from the flood was predicated upon his obedience to build the ark.

So, there is grace unto different things as the goal, and the salvation my ancient ancestors were promised was predicated first upon their attempted obedience to the Law, and THEN their salvation was assured after they died. Recall what Jesus said in Matthew 24, in that they had to, and will have to in the tribulation, endure unto the end so that they THEN SHALL (future tense) be saved. They were never offered grace unto salvation independent of obedience to the Law, and thus enduring unto the end of each of their lives.

Remember, they were not sealed by Holy Spirit as we are today.

MM

Correct. One will notice that it is the workers who constantly bring this up. If one is truly growing in His Grace and knowledge......Sinning is not in the equation. But if one is not growing in His Grace and has a skewed(adding works) version of Grace this assumption is a natural thought....Projection.

So, you therefore believe that the Blood of Christ was not sufficient? If not, then what are you saying if not that works-based salvation is what we are under today? It's one thing to say that good works flow outward from a genuine faith and saving grace, but quite another when coupling them together as a pre-requisite, that's not what Paul taught.

MM

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Really a long story but I see the 430 years as being from the death of Abraham in creation year 2123 adding 430 years to an exodus date of 2553. It makes my timeline correct when I apply this as the Septuagint and Syrian text says--430 years in Cannan and Egypt but the Masorectic text says just Egypt.

Going even deeper I found all the generational line from Adam to Christ were born and died on Passover. So --this is why say in Genesis 5 why no months or days are included.

Honestly, It may take YEARS before we produce any work/fruits. Because we have to be filled with Spirit and walking in the Spirit to "produce" anything of intrinsic value......And that takes quite a lot of Bible doctrine in the soul to know how.

We have to have quenching the Spirit understood and applied.

We have to have grieving the Spirit understood and applied.

We have to have being filled with the Spirit understood and applied.

We have to have walking in the Spirit understood and applied.

believers do not produce DIVINE good right out of the gate.....God has a specific plan. And we have to follow that plan.

the requirement for the law of Moses to be saved was perfection. commit one sin, and your cursed (even if it was a stumble in that sin)

They were saved by grace.. Just like abraham was.. Those who believes tended to obey or look to obey. because they trusted God..

those who did not. probably did not even try to obey the law. they loved their sin.

sadly, as we see with the pharisees. Many obeyed the law. yet had no faith in God. so obedience in the law could not save them

Noah was saved by grace. The same faith he had that saved him caused him to build the ark.

Your ancestors were saved by grace through faith as everyone else is.

As hebrews said, the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sin.. The wage of sin is death. only the cross could pay for it

licentiousness is people who have no faith.. they don;t use it is a license to sin.. they just never had faith.. hence theyt had no works.. and continued to live in sin

I think a person can do somethign out of love for God immediately following salvation.

more advanced works however. i agree. may take awhile. they have to grow in faith

Of course our works are all tainted by our touch even in inception.

We are saved by grace.
But that grace should react explosively with our faith causing us to act in gratitude with works. Knowing full well that our works are insufficient but that our honest efforts and desires will be recognized as pleasing to God as a type of living stone memorial of the wonderful work God has done within us.

Or ……maybe the person has actually read Paul’s letters and didn’t dismiss them for a sentance plucked out of one


“But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

paul must have been projecting because he didn’t understand youre guys version of “the gospel of grace “