Why do some people believe and some do not?
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Undoubtedly. And God has every right to turn His back and leave them in darkness should they CHOOSE to reject His light.
How is this possible? How can this be?
Simple: Because God ALSO has FREE WILL just the same as we do.
[Psa 14:1 KJV]
The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, [there is] none that doeth good.
Yes, the Calvinites are clueless as to the holistic application of this passage. As they are with so many others.
How is this possible? How can this be?
Simple: Because God ALSO has FREE WILL just the same as we do.
[Psa 14:1 KJV]
The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, [there is] none that doeth good.
Yes, the Calvinites are clueless as to the holistic application of this passage. As they are with so many others.
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Since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, He gave them
up to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
What say you regarding the case of King Nebuchadnezzar, who in
the Book of Daniel “was driven from men and did eat grass as oxen."
From Daniel 4 (Daniel's interpretation of the King's dream)
20 The tree you saw that grew large and strong, whose top reached the sky and was visible to all the earth, 21 whose foliage was beautiful and whose fruit was abundant, providing food for all, under which the beasts of the field lived, and in whose branches the birds of the air nested— 22 you, O king, are that tree! For you have become great and strong; your greatness has grown to reach the sky, and your dominion extends to the ends of the earth.
23 And you, O king, saw a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven and saying:
‘Cut down the tree and destroy it,
but leave the stump with its roots in the ground,
with a band of iron and bronze around it,
in the tender grass of the field.
Let him be drenched with the dew of heaven,
and graze with the beasts of the field
till seven times pass him by.’
24 This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree that the Most High has issued against my lord the king:
25 You will be driven away from mankind, and your dwelling will be with the beasts of the field. You will feed on grass like an ox and be drenched with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass you by, until you acknowledge that the Most High rules over the kingdom of mankind and gives it to whom He wishes.
26 As for the command to leave the stump of the tree with its roots, your kingdom will be restored to you as soon as you acknowledge that Heaven rules. 27 Therefore, may my advice be pleasing to you, O king. Break away from your sins by doing what is right, and from your iniquities by showing mercy to the oppressed. Perhaps there will be an extension of your prosperity.”
up to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
What say you regarding the case of King Nebuchadnezzar, who in
the Book of Daniel “was driven from men and did eat grass as oxen."
From Daniel 4 (Daniel's interpretation of the King's dream)
20 The tree you saw that grew large and strong, whose top reached the sky and was visible to all the earth, 21 whose foliage was beautiful and whose fruit was abundant, providing food for all, under which the beasts of the field lived, and in whose branches the birds of the air nested— 22 you, O king, are that tree! For you have become great and strong; your greatness has grown to reach the sky, and your dominion extends to the ends of the earth.
23 And you, O king, saw a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven and saying:
‘Cut down the tree and destroy it,
but leave the stump with its roots in the ground,
with a band of iron and bronze around it,
in the tender grass of the field.
Let him be drenched with the dew of heaven,
and graze with the beasts of the field
till seven times pass him by.’
24 This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree that the Most High has issued against my lord the king:
25 You will be driven away from mankind, and your dwelling will be with the beasts of the field. You will feed on grass like an ox and be drenched with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass you by, until you acknowledge that the Most High rules over the kingdom of mankind and gives it to whom He wishes.
26 As for the command to leave the stump of the tree with its roots, your kingdom will be restored to you as soon as you acknowledge that Heaven rules. 27 Therefore, may my advice be pleasing to you, O king. Break away from your sins by doing what is right, and from your iniquities by showing mercy to the oppressed. Perhaps there will be an extension of your prosperity.”
I understand the reasoning and the explanation but it's not always best to transfer terminology from one document to another without some caution. Some paraphrased observations I'm sure you have thoughts about:
I'm sure you also know that John will take his concept re: knowing God into parallels with loving and obeying God.
- Rom1:19 speaks of the [things] known of/about God
- Rom1:20 says God's power and divinity are seen and understood
- Rom1:21 says they knew God sufficiently to glorify and be thankful to Him
- This is the same word used in John17 and I note that John17 speaks of knowing God and Jesus Christ so there is more known here
- Rom1:28 says they did not value to have God in knowledge - this knowledge is experiential knowledge - knowledge meant to be utilized - so it seems to elaborate what knowledge of God / knowing God they had
- Rom1:32 says they have this experiential knowledge of God's righteous judgment of death.
I'm sure you also know that John will take his concept re: knowing God into parallels with loving and obeying God.
I do agree. I consider all here saved. Just many are LOSER believers. And I will have the privilege to teach them Bible class 101 for 1000 years in the millennial Kingdom...........to their SHAME for not studying it while they had the Chance.
1 John 2:28
Now, little children, remain in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not draw back from Him in shame at His coming.
1 John 2:28
Now, little children, remain in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not draw back from Him in shame at His coming.
Close enough.
I found this "reprobate mind" an interesting concept. As usual we can see the translators using different English words in the translations. I'll use this one:
I found this "reprobate mind" an interesting concept. As usual we can see the translators using different English words in the translations. I'll use this one:
- YLT Romans 1:28 And, according as they did not approve of having God in knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mind, to do the things not seemly;
- This word when tracked through Scripture and used historically also in secular writings, can be tied to use re: assaying and testing the purity and the value of precious metals. So it can be seen as speaking of value.
- Both the above highlighted words are forms of this same word
- Very literally this can be saying they did not value having God in experiential knowledge, so God handed them over / delivered them to their minds of no value. IOW men who see know value having God in their experiential knowledge God sees as having valueless/worthless minds.
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The words are actually the same as I pointed out. The way you're explaining John's vs. Paul's use (Rom1) makes sense - I did similarly to compare to you. But the words are the same. Paul will also speak of experiential knowledge many times as he trends into various things about the Christian life.
Experiential knowledge in this sense is not focusing on the senses but on knowledge also obtained by revelation and meant by God to be used - put into action - actually lived out.
Experiential knowledge in this sense is not focusing on the senses but on knowledge also obtained by revelation and meant by God to be used - put into action - actually lived out.
There are those here who think the idea of experiential knowledge of God a laughable idea worthy
of being mocked and scorned, and in fact one person has repeatedly stated that God is unfair if He
does the very thing He does, which is reveal Himself in different ways to different people, which the
Bible actually has many examples of, since for instance Moses' experience was not the same as Paul's
nor was Samuel's experience the same as anybody else's. They are so dead set against the idea of God
keeping His promise to reveal Himself to people that they call such experiences "gnosis"in their
desire to make it out to be something to be avoided instead of something to be treasured.
of being mocked and scorned, and in fact one person has repeatedly stated that God is unfair if He
does the very thing He does, which is reveal Himself in different ways to different people, which the
Bible actually has many examples of, since for instance Moses' experience was not the same as Paul's
nor was Samuel's experience the same as anybody else's. They are so dead set against the idea of God
keeping His promise to reveal Himself to people that they call such experiences "gnosis"in their
desire to make it out to be something to be avoided instead of something to be treasured.