The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

...if salvation is a work of God, doesn't God already know who He will save? Hasn't He known all along?

Looks like false belief. Maybe belief in some sense but not true in another sense(s).

@Everlasting-Grace, I’m through with this thread…as it accomplished its purpose. It proved how OSAS does not have a leg to stand on…

and proved the “never saved” argument as one of desperation…

when they discover and realize their doctrine to be false.

It also proved how it’s an emotional doctrine…

as well as it being outright dishonest with verses…as well as accusing others of something they are or are not.

The eternal security of believers is found in the scripture, but not the impossibility of apostasy (which is what OSAS teaches)…

it also proved how it is inconsistent…and offers no kind of comfort or hope to those who were once saved..only to be told they were never saved…and it leaves others questioning their own salvation…if they are consistent. It also proved how it is a doctrine of circle conversations. Much more can be said…but I’ll leave it at that.

So you are a born again Child of the God of all things.

You are His kid. He is your Daddy (Abba)

And you're telling me that your Daddy is going to cast you into eternal fire because you did, or didn't do a specific thing?

Your Father loves you, and He will discipline you when you do wrong. He will even let you wallow in the mud and get lost out there. BUT, He will NEVER stop drawing you back to Him, and looking for you UNTIL HE FINDS YOU! Do you think God is incapable of finding His kids?

When you stand at the judgement Seat of Christ you may even lose eternal rewards and position and possibly be counted amongst the least in Heaven.

But you WILL be there.

So fear not friend.

It's interesting that under the Kingdom Gospel, endurance is what was required for one to be saved, which is not what we are under today who are saved, for we are sealed under the Gospel of Grace.

[Mat 10:22 KJV] 22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved (notice the FUTURE tense).

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved (notice the FUTURE tense).

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved (notice the FUTURE tense).

Please pardon the repetitiveness of my pointing out the future tense for the salvation for those who were under the Kingdom Gospel, but this is an important feature of the language written that is so easily missed by so many. Those under the Kingdom Gospel were and will be required to endure. The contrast in the salvational realities under the two different gospels is striking, and when ignorant people try to harmonize them together as if they were written to the same audience, but were not. The nay-sayers will have ignored what I wrote prior in this thread as backing for this, which is their loss.

MM

I do not think we will know really who may or may not have come to believe. until we see who is in heaven.

To many make believers out there who profess faith, but sadly reject faith

sadly, he is making an argument based on something that is not true. But for some reason. no matter how many times he is shown this and no matter how many people show it. He will not repent of his false belief of what those he is trying to attack really believe

You state they repudiate their faith.

John said in effect. they never had faith.

so you tell me where the issue lies.

They were never of us. period.. Why is it words like never and eternal do not mean what they say according to many people?

try reading the verses you posted. Verses used to support that salvation can be lost. if we do not live up to Gods standard etc etc.

No, but Dad allows saints to be/remain prodigal and shipwreck faith/salvation,
in which case they will NOT be in Heaven.

I now remember why I didn't jump in earlier - never ending never resolved OSAS discussions.

My comment to @Believer08 was about the post talking about belief this thread has run its course.

The disciples of Christ Jesus did what they were trained to do, which is to primarily minister to Israel. Jesus Himself called Gentiles "dogs," and for good reason:

Ephesians 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye [Gentiles] being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Verse 13 is the key to the mystery revealed (the body of Christ) only to Paul at first, not to the eleven, is yet again something that so many miss because of their failure to rightly divide the word of truth. Before the fall of Israel, Gentiles had only the priesthood of Israel through which they could enter to be in Christ. The reformed gang can't see the forest for the trees, along with the RCC and many other groupings and denominations.

The lack of discernment on the part of many is amazing. Failure for so many to grapple with such things as this parable is what feeds the fires that burn away understanding:

Luke 13:6-9
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man (Messiah) had a fig tree (Israel) planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit (faith) thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years (hint, hint) I come seeking fruit on this fig tree (Israel), and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down (Stephen's stoning).

(Parentheses entries above and below are mine.)

The nay-sayers out there have demanded that this parallel isn't correct, and yet they have no other parallel to place along-side this parable recorded in Luke's gospel. It speaks volumes to the fall of Israel:

Romans 11:11-13
11 I say then, Have they stumbled (Israel) that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (Israel) to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness (restoration)?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

This is so very overlooked by the LoS and other groupings of blind and indifferent claimants to following Christ Jesus. Notice in verse 13 where Paul declared that HE is the apostle to the Gentiles. Throughout the four gospels, we have to recognize this command from Christ to them at that time:

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

It was only to bloodline Israel they were commanded to go at that time, and to the scattered twelve tribes abroad. James remained true to that command after the ascension of Christ:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

James was not writing to the Gentiles because he was not the apostle to the Gentiles.

So, sticking today to what was written TO us under the Gospel of Grace, we can indeed reverence the truths written TO Israel, but when we try to integrate the two sets of instructions into one, there results only confusion and inconsistencies.

Gentiles were never "scattered abroad," because that's where they lived...

MM

This answers that retort: isn't this "works salvation"? (NO!:^)

No, but Dad allows saints to be/remain prodigal and shipwreck faith/salvation,
in which case they will NOT be in Heaven.

I notice that you like to ask questions but not answer any.

I

One could hope that the following insight would resolve the OSAS endless loop:

There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living/persevering (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime (RM 1:17).

This answers that retort: isn't this "works salvation"? (NO!:^)

Yes it is. It negates the many CLEAR verses of never perish. No condemnation. You HAVE eternal life. Sealed with the same seal as the Son.

This "statement" is the same word salad the calvies use.

Justification, sanctification and glorification Are 3 DISTINCT qualities. You just have justification in your theology. So YOU have to work at it.

@GWH, there is an endless loop of OSAS…people ends up becoming hamsters going round and round in their hamster wheels when they resort to the never saved argument. No one really knows who is saved in that doctrine until they die. How comforting…