everything is predestined?
- Thread starter WannabeWinner
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It does not say clearly that we are all BORN dead, that is , dead to god.
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
It merely SAYS that before being saved they were "dead in their transgressions and sins". Nothing about being born that way.
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
It merely SAYS that before being saved they were "dead in their transgressions and sins". Nothing about being born that way.
God may have? And it doesn't mean God is controlling all things?
That is your rationale, not the world of God.
Isaiah 45:6-7 - That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Psalms 115:3 - But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Isaiah 14:24 - The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
God is completely in control, even if he is not "controlling" or has not shown himself to be a tyrant. Everything is moving within the context of His will, and He has allowed the world to do what He said it would do (Matthew 24, Romans chapter 1).
That is your rationale, not the world of God.
Isaiah 45:6-7 - That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Psalms 115:3 - But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Isaiah 14:24 - The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
God is completely in control, even if he is not "controlling" or has not shown himself to be a tyrant. Everything is moving within the context of His will, and He has allowed the world to do what He said it would do (Matthew 24, Romans chapter 1).
All great verses you posted. Maybe you took my post in a wrong manner. Yes, God has complete control over all things, but he is not controlling all things. Many things happen that is not pleasing to him. Will his end desire come to pass as we read in scripture? Absolutely. Not all things are the will of God. I step out of God's will for my life daily.
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I agree with you that God allows things to be done that are not pleasing to him, yet there is the law of SIN, which is death. This means that God has attached the reward for sin to the action of sin.
Yes, you can violate his law and sin, but there is reaping that comes with that automatically. Therefore, He is still in control unless you repent and accept His Provision of Grace through Christ.
Yes, you can violate his law and sin, but there is reaping that comes with that automatically. Therefore, He is still in control unless you repent and accept His Provision of Grace through Christ.
That's quite a mix. I prefer straight out of scripture and not a Calvinism/Gospel mashup 
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We have our choices, and responsibility with those. Peter had responsibility, even believing so, that he said what he would do that very night, when Jesus would be taken, contrary to what Jesus said would happen, but while Peter could have done differently, Jesus said it because Peter wasn't going to. The foreknowledge of God is not determining the outcome, and not causative. It is just the knowledge, and much of what happens, with our involvement, is separate from God's causation, or anything determinative from what Jesus prophesied. We still choose, and things result from that. And our response to God is always needed.
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I would say this factors in because God determined it from the start
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”
Genesis 1:26 KJV
i think this is baked into creation as Gods design so mankind has agency upon earth, this is of course by Gods Will that man have dominion on earth . So we see this that God created
“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
Genesis 1:31
But then he gave earth to mankind to rule over and mankind was corrupted in thier mind and heart and just ten generations after man was given dominion over Gods very good creation ot comes to this .
“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
Genesis 6:5-7, 12-13 KJV
If God is repenting because he created mankind in the earth and if he’s saying “ the earth is corrupted and filled with violence by them and if he’s decided to because of the terrible grief in his heart destroy everything he just had created and called very good
is this all going according to some divine plan ? Did God plan to grieve his own heart and repent himself for creating mankind and destroy them all from the start ? Or did mankind’s course of actions send everything into a downfall ? And now God is solving the issue and planning on beginning again with Noah and his family ?
“And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. ( thier creator who deemed them very good in the beginning )
Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.”
Genesis 6:13-14, 17-18
I think God knows the end and outcome of all things from the beginning the bi ke says this but I’m not sure everything that happens is his plan I think a lot that mankind does against his Will is an important part of his actions in response.
Like this example watch how it unfolds
“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
“And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
Genesis 2:25
“And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
….And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
….And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil note God didn’t make us this way we became this way by transgressing his word ) and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
( as a result of what they did against his Will )So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
Genesis 3:6, 8, 11, 22, 24
I’m not convinced Gods plan was for man to revel and bring death and destruction to his good creation mostly because of what the term repent and greived in the heart means . To me that says it was against his Will
again though he’s all knowing but that’s not relevant to us from our perspective God already knows what choices we’ll make good and evil because he has foreknowledge but that’s different than it’s all happening as part of a coordinated plan
the plan I believe is what he says in the Bible his plan is for mankind to reign on the earth in his presence in peace and harmony . And in the end it will be fulfilled but the in between isn’t God just doing all this stuff for entertainment or anything it all has a purpose
amen became sinners and condemned to die so God sent his only begotten son ( which was already known by him beforehand but nevertheless it wasn’t that he caused purposefully cain to kill abel that was cains doing God had called for him to repent
In that case cain was the reason abel was killed it wasn’t Gods plan and will Gods plan for abel is to eventually avenge his blood with the rest of the saints
I’d say Gods plan will not fail but alot of it has been delayed and troubled by mankind’s dominion rebelling against him
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”
Genesis 1:26 KJV
i think this is baked into creation as Gods design so mankind has agency upon earth, this is of course by Gods Will that man have dominion on earth . So we see this that God created
“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
Genesis 1:31
But then he gave earth to mankind to rule over and mankind was corrupted in thier mind and heart and just ten generations after man was given dominion over Gods very good creation ot comes to this .
“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
Genesis 6:5-7, 12-13 KJV
If God is repenting because he created mankind in the earth and if he’s saying “ the earth is corrupted and filled with violence by them and if he’s decided to because of the terrible grief in his heart destroy everything he just had created and called very good
is this all going according to some divine plan ? Did God plan to grieve his own heart and repent himself for creating mankind and destroy them all from the start ? Or did mankind’s course of actions send everything into a downfall ? And now God is solving the issue and planning on beginning again with Noah and his family ?
“And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. ( thier creator who deemed them very good in the beginning )
Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.”
Genesis 6:13-14, 17-18
I think God knows the end and outcome of all things from the beginning the bi ke says this but I’m not sure everything that happens is his plan I think a lot that mankind does against his Will is an important part of his actions in response.
Like this example watch how it unfolds
“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
“And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
Genesis 2:25
“And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
….And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
….And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil
note God didn’t make us this way we became this way by transgressing his word ) and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: ( as a result of what they did against his Will )So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
Genesis 3:6, 8, 11, 22, 24
I’m not convinced Gods plan was for man to revel and bring death and destruction to his good creation mostly because of what the term repent and greived in the heart means . To me that says it was against his Will
again though he’s all knowing but that’s not relevant to us from our perspective God already knows what choices we’ll make good and evil because he has foreknowledge but that’s different than it’s all happening as part of a coordinated plan
the plan I believe is what he says in the Bible his plan is for mankind to reign on the earth in his presence in peace and harmony . And in the end it will be fulfilled but the in between isn’t God just doing all this stuff for entertainment or anything it all has a purpose
amen became sinners and condemned to die so God sent his only begotten son ( which was already known by him beforehand but nevertheless it wasn’t that he caused purposefully cain to kill abel that was cains doing God had called for him to repent
In that case cain was the reason abel was killed it wasn’t Gods plan and will Gods plan for abel is to eventually avenge his blood with the rest of the saints
I’d say Gods plan will not fail but alot of it has been delayed and troubled by mankind’s dominion rebelling against him
That's an assertion and the way you look at it, but to assume your understanding of reality and the way our God works everything is complete enough to present this assertion as if it's just the truth and "beyond question", is pretty arrogent from my POV.
Thinking we can boil down Gods soverginty to this simplistic an assertion, as if you KNOW you're right and there is no way God has complete control over ALL of creation, including our choice, and it ALL works for His glory, within His will, is just not something I believe we can even get near knowing, nevermind making the kinds of assertions about it that you are here. I don't trust your opinion on this any more than you should trust mine, but the way you break it down and try to reduce the whole concept into this assertion is just kind of silly in my opinion. Your "if/then" here is not holding ANY water from my perspective.
Thinking we can boil down Gods soverginty to this simplistic an assertion, as if you KNOW you're right and there is no way God has complete control over ALL of creation, including our choice, and it ALL works for His glory, within His will, is just not something I believe we can even get near knowing, nevermind making the kinds of assertions about it that you are here. I don't trust your opinion on this any more than you should trust mine, but the way you break it down and try to reduce the whole concept into this assertion is just kind of silly in my opinion. Your "if/then" here is not holding ANY water from my perspective.
I would say this factors in because God determined it from the start
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”
Genesis 1:26 KJV
i think this is baked into creation as Gods design so mankind has agency upon earth, this is of course by Gods Will that man have dominion on earth . So we see this that God created
“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
Genesis 1:31
But then he gave earth to mankind to rule over and mankind was corrupted in thier mind and heart and just ten generations after man was given dominion over Gods very good creation ot comes to this .
“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
Genesis 6:5-7, 12-13 KJV
If God is repenting because he created mankind in the earth and if he’s saying “ the earth is corrupted and filled with violence by them and if he’s decided to because of the terrible grief in his heart destroy everything he just had created and called very good
is this all going according to some divine plan ? Did God plan to grieve his own heart and repent himself for creating mankind and destroy them all from the start ? Or did mankind’s course of actions send everything into a downfall ? And now God is solving the issue and planning on beginning again with Noah and his family ?
“And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. ( thier creator who deemed them very good in the beginning )
Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.”
Genesis 6:13-14, 17-18
I think God knows the end and outcome of all things from the beginning the bi ke says this but I’m not sure everything that happens is his plan I think a lot that mankind does against his Will is an important part of his actions in response.
Like this example watch how it unfolds
“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
“And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
Genesis 2:25
“And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
….And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
….And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evilnote God didn’t make us this way we became this way by transgressing his word ) and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
( as a result of what they did against his Will )So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
Genesis 3:6, 8, 11, 22, 24
I’m not convinced Gods plan was for man to revel and bring death and destruction to his good creation mostly because of what the term repent and greived in the heart means . To me that says it was against his Will
again though he’s all knowing but that’s not relevant to us from our perspective God already knows what choices we’ll make good and evil because he has foreknowledge but that’s different than it’s all happening as part of a coordinated plan
the plan I believe is what he says in the Bible his plan is for mankind to reign on the earth in his presence in peace and harmony . And in the end it will be fulfilled but the in between isn’t God just doing all this stuff for entertainment or anything it all has a purpose
amen became sinners and condemned to die so God sent his only begotten son ( which was already known by him beforehand but nevertheless it wasn’t that he caused purposefully cain to kill abel that was cains doing God had called for him to repent
In that case cain was the reason abel was killed it wasn’t Gods plan and will Gods plan for abel is to eventually avenge his blood with the rest of the saints
I’d say Gods plan will not fail but alot of it has been delayed and troubled by mankind’s dominion rebelling against him
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”
Genesis 1:26 KJV
i think this is baked into creation as Gods design so mankind has agency upon earth, this is of course by Gods Will that man have dominion on earth . So we see this that God created
“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
Genesis 1:31
But then he gave earth to mankind to rule over and mankind was corrupted in thier mind and heart and just ten generations after man was given dominion over Gods very good creation ot comes to this .
“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
Genesis 6:5-7, 12-13 KJV
If God is repenting because he created mankind in the earth and if he’s saying “ the earth is corrupted and filled with violence by them and if he’s decided to because of the terrible grief in his heart destroy everything he just had created and called very good
is this all going according to some divine plan ? Did God plan to grieve his own heart and repent himself for creating mankind and destroy them all from the start ? Or did mankind’s course of actions send everything into a downfall ? And now God is solving the issue and planning on beginning again with Noah and his family ?
“And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. ( thier creator who deemed them very good in the beginning )
Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.”
Genesis 6:13-14, 17-18
I think God knows the end and outcome of all things from the beginning the bi ke says this but I’m not sure everything that happens is his plan I think a lot that mankind does against his Will is an important part of his actions in response.
Like this example watch how it unfolds
“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
“And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
Genesis 2:25
“And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
….And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
….And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil
note God didn’t make us this way we became this way by transgressing his word ) and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:( as a result of what they did against his Will )So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
Genesis 3:6, 8, 11, 22, 24
I’m not convinced Gods plan was for man to revel and bring death and destruction to his good creation mostly because of what the term repent and greived in the heart means . To me that says it was against his Will
again though he’s all knowing but that’s not relevant to us from our perspective God already knows what choices we’ll make good and evil because he has foreknowledge but that’s different than it’s all happening as part of a coordinated plan
the plan I believe is what he says in the Bible his plan is for mankind to reign on the earth in his presence in peace and harmony . And in the end it will be fulfilled but the in between isn’t God just doing all this stuff for entertainment or anything it all has a purpose
amen became sinners and condemned to die so God sent his only begotten son ( which was already known by him beforehand but nevertheless it wasn’t that he caused purposefully cain to kill abel that was cains doing God had called for him to repent
In that case cain was the reason abel was killed it wasn’t Gods plan and will Gods plan for abel is to eventually avenge his blood with the rest of the saints
I’d say Gods plan will not fail but alot of it has been delayed and troubled by mankind’s dominion rebelling against him
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