Poll about how you see predestination/freewill

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Which one do you mostly subscribe to:

  • Arminianism

  • Calvinism

  • Molinism

  • Open theism


Results are only viewable after voting.

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
64,798
33,006
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Philippians 3 verse 3; Colossians 2 verse 11; Romans 2 verse 29b ~ For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh. You were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. Circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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Okay, let's tackle the subject of Regeneration. Keeping in mind, that for a subject of this difficulty, we really need a far better platform than this chat to do it justice but I will give the basics.

First let's start with what the word "Regeneration" means; both Socially and Biblically. The social Dictionary defines "Regeneration" as: 1) Being in a regenerated state. 2) In biology, the ability to regrow a damaged part or organ. 3) Spiritually, a spiritual renewal or rebirth.

It is the third definition that we are going to concentrate on, as this is what the Bible teaches about Regeneration - that is - it is the rebirth of a person's "spiritual condition".
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit;

But why does a person need to be "Regenerated"? What is the problem?

The problem is summed up in these verses:
Rom_5:12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--
1Cor 2:14 Now the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
(or determined).

The "one man" - spoken of in Romans 5:12 - was Adam. When Adam fell in sin, all fell in him, even though we were not yet born. Notice in the last part of 5:12, this brought about death and it was passed on to all men. So all men will experience physical death, to be sure but all men also died "spiritually" and are spiritually dead from the moment they are born. How do we know this statement - all men are spiritually dead - to be true? Read these verses:
Eph. 2:1b ..when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,
Eph. 2:5a even when we were dead through our trespasses..

Obviously, this cannot mean physically dead because both verses are in the past tense; so those being spoken of are physically alive. Therefore, this was the spiritual state of an individual while they were still unregenerate. Walking in the ways of the world and doing unspeakable things. They were the children of wrath. (Eph. 2:2 & 3)

So what is the corrective action for this problem? God, through His mercy and Grace, sends the Holy Spirit to individuals to be Regenerated. This is a secret work of the Spirit, which Jesus Christ was enlightening Nicodemus to in John 3:1-10. Without Regeneration, no one can enter into the Kingdom because no one will believe God's Word and thus, no one will believe on the Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. Regeneration does for the elect person, what "recharging" does for a dead battery. A dead battery is useless in it's present state. Recharge the battery and you have altered it's state to one that can be useful. Likewise with us. In our natural state, we are useless to God and have nothing but enmity for Him. (Rom. 8:6-8) However, once Regenerated and renewed by the Holy Spirit, we can become useful. Our spiritual state has been quickened - made alive again. (Eph. 2:1 & 5)

Some would have us believe that we are Regenerated after we believe on Christ but this makes no sense because if we can believe on Jesus Christ without first being Regenerated, then what would be the purpose in Regeneration? If we already have an enlivened spirit, then there is nothing to Regenerate. After all, you don't recharge a perfectly good battery. The need for Regeneration, presupposes that we are spiritually dead and therefore, are in need of a regenerating work.

Since the Holy Spirit, is the only one who can carry out Regeneration in a person and He must be sent to that person in God's predetermined time, it makes understanding Election and Predestination a forgone conclusion. The Father has determined who will be Regenerated and when they will be Regenerated. Notice what Jesus said in this verse:
John 6:39, 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. (40) For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholds the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (The number that believes on the Son is equal to the number the Father gave to Him which is equal to the number that has, is and will be Regenerated).

To deny the need for Regeneration before belief, is to deny all that the Scriptures teach about Salvation.

While most new converts only recognize a new found interest in the Gospel message and begin to understand it's meaning; they may not be aware of why they are now interested in something they never had interest in before. Only through good sound Doctrinal teaching will they become aware of how God accomplished salvation in their lives. All they know is - they heard the message - they realized they were sinners - they repented - and believed on Jesus for their salvation. Regeneration made it possible. God moving first in a person, enabling that one to move towards God.
We know Romans 5:12 to be true the same way we know Rom. 5:15 to be true,
and the obvious truth they teach is that Christ atoned for Adam's sin,
and all who are in Christ are no longer in Adam, spiritually.

The corrective action for the problem of being spiritually dead/in Adam (Eph. 1:1-5)
is to repent of being hard-hearted and be in Christ via Christ's indwelling as the HS (Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5),
which is called spiritual regeneration or rebirth in John 3:1-10 and baptism in 1Cor. 12:13.
Those who reject GW/Christ are atheists, whose hostility toward God is cited in Rom. 8:6-8
and described more fully by Jesus in John 8:42-44 as manifested by murder and lying.

Paul would have us believe that we are regenerated or saved when we believe in Jesus as Messiah/Christ and Lord (Acts 16:30-31),
which John 3:16 states simply as "believe in Him". Jesus commended Peter for professing such faith in Matt. 16:16-17, which makes perfect sense, since the Father reveals such truth via the HS (1John 5:4-6, John 6:39-40). IOW, rebirth occurs simultaneously with saving faith.

When a person is saved by accepting Jesus as Lord, he/she will want to learn GW (Matt. 4:4, 5:6)
and obey JC's command to love everyone (Matt. 5:44, John 13:35) and the TOP to live in accordance with
what the HS desires (Rom. 8:1-5). The need for LGW in order to move closer toward spiritual maturity
necessitates lifelong perseverance (Heb. 10:19-36), and the process is called sanctification (2Thes. 2:13, 1Pet. 1:2).
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,296
1,403
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Australia
I believe Christ's death was a provision for all, but its benefits are only received by those who choose to accept it through faith.

God's grace is offered freely to all, and individuals are responsible for responding to that grace.

I believe in an investigative judgment, where God will examine the actions of believers to determine their faithfulness, which is an Arminian view of the judgment.
 
Mar 8, 2025
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The Context. Context.

THOSE(the Church) whom He foreknew.

He is Not talking about Kroogz specifically. (we both know He could)

Kroogz believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for His salvation......As a part of the Church, I am predestined to be conformed to His image++++++

It is not about our specific salvation, that is what the calvies want us to believe.
Some things must be foreknown otherwise the idea would not have ever entered into our minds. Foreknowledge seems to be an attribute of God just like omnipotence. It is interesting that the Ante-Nicene Christians believed men had a free choice. It was not until Augustine brought in Manichaeism that they envisioned a clock-work universe which God managed every single detail
 
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Augustine "discovered" Original Sin where no ancient theologian had discovered it before. It was not an actual sin but the ghost of a the ghost of a metaphysical sin projected onto the general background sins of an entire race. Augustines ideas did not flow from original presuppositions because the Ante-Nicene fathers accepted free will and not determinism.
 
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Augustine was an academic theologian who misunderstand the fundamentals of the Faith which was more about theological paradoxes and Platonic speculations rather than straight forward obedience to the truth. Despite all the hype about "deeper truth" and appeal to mystery, Augustines system was complex and not easily understandable. It was meant to dazzle not to satisfy the understanding.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
2,142
1,540
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Some things must be foreknown otherwise the idea would not have ever entered into our minds. Foreknowledge seems to be an attribute of God just like omnipotence. It is interesting that the Ante-Nicene Christians believed men had a free choice. It was not until Augustine brought in Manichaeism that they envisioned a clock-work universe which God managed every single detail
how many times will this lie about manichaeism and gnosticism will be brought up? augustine argued against gnosticism..... read his writings.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
1,651
491
83
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We know Romans 5:12 to be true the same way we know Rom. 5:15 to be true,
and the obvious truth they teach is that Christ atoned for Adam's sin,
and all who are in Christ are no longer in Adam, spiritually.

The corrective action for the problem of being spiritually dead/in Adam (Eph. 1:1-5)
is to repent of being hard-hearted and be in Christ via Christ's indwelling as the HS (Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5),
which is called spiritual regeneration or rebirth in John 3:1-10 and baptism in 1Cor. 12:13.
Those who reject GW/Christ are atheists, whose hostility toward God is cited in Rom. 8:6-8
and described more fully by Jesus in John 8:42-44 as manifested by murder and lying.

Paul would have us believe that we are regenerated or saved when we believe in Jesus as Messiah/Christ and Lord (Acts 16:30-31),
which John 3:16 states simply as "believe in Him". Jesus commended Peter for professing such faith in Matt. 16:16-17, which makes perfect sense, since the Father reveals such truth via the HS (1John 5:4-6, John 6:39-40). IOW, rebirth occurs simultaneously with saving faith.

When a person is saved by accepting Jesus as Lord, he/she will want to learn GW (Matt. 4:4, 5:6)
and obey JC's command to love everyone (Matt. 5:44, John 13:35) and the TOP to live in accordance with
what the HS desires (Rom. 8:1-5). The need for LGW in order to move closer toward spiritual maturity
necessitates lifelong perseverance (Heb. 10:19-36), and the process is called sanctification (2Thes. 2:13, 1Pet. 1:2).
Well congratulations - You did the one thing I can't stand on this chat group. I gave you a short but definitive answer about "REGENERATION', along with some sound arguments and you didn't even have one question. Instead, you think carrying out an intelligent conversation means ignore what the other person just said and try to out shout them with your Arminian views. This is not how we listen to each other, nor how we learn from one another.

However, I will make a few points in discussion with you.

In your post, you equated "regeneration" with "salvation" --- "Paul would have us believe that we are regenerated or saved when we believe in Jesus as Messiah/Christ and Lord" (Your quote).

Regeneration and "saved" are not the same thing. I explained what regeneration is. Look the word up. Strong's defines the Greek word: παλιγγενεσία (paliggenesia), as "a spiritual rebirth" or "spiritual renovation". You do understand what a "rebirth" is, right? It is exactly what our Lord was talking about in this verse: John 3:8 The wind blows where it will, and you are hearing the sound thereof, but know not from where it comes, and where it is going: so it is with everyone that has been born (γεγεννημενος) of the Spirit. This is our Lord's definition of one who has been born again or born anew. It is the sole work of the Holy Spirit and if you understood the Greek "tenses" and "voices", then you would know that this action is in the "PERFECT tense" and in the 'PASSIVE voice". The person being renewed by the Spirit is being acted upon, (Passive), and is not active in the action. [Believing.. is an active action].

You stated the following -- "The corrective action for the problem of being spiritually dead/in Adam (Eph. 1:1-5)
is to repent of being hard-hearted.."
So apparently you believe that "Repentance" proceeds regeneration? If this were true, then what would be the purpose of regenerating someone? If the person has the natural ability to repent and believe - then that one must already possess a healthy working spirit and it cannot be dead in trespasses and sins. Therefore, under your explanation, there is no need for regeneration because there is nothing to regenerate. This concept would fly in the face of many Scriptures. Here are two of them:

John 6:44 No man is able to come to me, except the Father which sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
John 6:65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man is able to come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.


ABILITY, in these two verses, speaks of the need for regeneration in order to come to Christ.
 
Jul 3, 2015
64,798
33,006
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Well congratulations - You did the one thing I can't stand on this chat group. I gave you a short but definitive answer about "REGENERATION', along with some sound arguments and you didn't even have one question. Instead, you think carrying out an intelligent conversation means ignore what the other person just said and try to out shout them with your Arminian views. This is not how we listen to each other, nor how we learn from one another.

However, I will make a few points in discussion with you.

In your post, you equated "regeneration" with "salvation" --- "Paul would have us believe that we are regenerated or saved when we believe in Jesus as Messiah/Christ and Lord" (Your quote).

Regeneration and "saved" are not the same thing. I explained what regeneration is. Look the word up. Strong's defines the Greek word: παλιγγενεσία (paliggenesia), as "a spiritual rebirth" or "spiritual renovation". You do understand what a "rebirth" is, right? It is exactly what our Lord was talking about in this verse: John 3:8 The wind blows where it will, and you are hearing the sound thereof, but know not from where it comes, and where it is going: so it is with everyone that has been born (γεγεννημενος) of the Spirit. This is our Lord's definition of one who has been born again or born anew. It is the sole work of the Holy Spirit and if you understood the Greek "tenses" and "voices", then you would know that this action is in the "PERFECT tense" and in the 'PASSIVE voice". The person being renewed by the Spirit is being acted upon, (Passive), and is not active in the action. [Believing.. is an active action].

You stated the following -- "The corrective action for the problem of being spiritually dead/in Adam (Eph. 1:1-5)
is to repent of being hard-hearted.."
So apparently you believe that "Repentance" proceeds regeneration? If this were true, then what would be the purpose of regenerating someone? If the person has the natural ability to repent and believe - then that one must already possess a healthy working spirit and it cannot be dead in trespasses and sins. Therefore, under your explanation, there is no need for regeneration because there is nothing to regenerate. This concept would fly in the face of many Scriptures. Here are two of them:

John 6:44 No man is able to come to me, except the Father which sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
John 6:65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man is able to come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.


ABILITY, in these two verses, speaks of the need for regeneration in order to come to Christ.

Despite what the un-Biblical free will doctrine promoters put forth, the natural man does not have everything he needs in order to grow the good fruit of faith from the stony ground of his incurably wicked heart which is opposed to the things of God, and he cannot change himself, being a lover of darkness who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness as a slave to sin, being inherently hostile in his mind toward God, and blinded to the truth while under the power of the evil one. Those who promote the free will of the natural man reject a plethora of Biblical truths.
 
Mar 8, 2025
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how many times will this lie about manichaeism and gnosticism will be brought up? augustine argued against gnosticism..... read his writings.
At first Augustine argued against Manichaeism. He chose to study it rather than study the scripture
Augustine’s search for truth would inevitably lead him to fall in with the pseudo-Christian sect known as the Manichees (followers of the self-declared prophet Mani). For close to ten years Augustine remained a Manichee and most of Book 3is spent on detailing his errors in falling in with them. Augustine’s first criticism of the Manichee doctrines he believed concerns their dependence on an elaborate mythology. The sun and moon are venerated as divine beings, and Manichees tended to picture divinity in terms of "physical images" or "bodily shapes." These "fantasies" and "dreams" will plague Augustine almost until his conversion, keeping him from recognizing God as a "spiritual substance" rather than some sort of enormous physical mass. Augustine offers a brief account of the proper view here, noting that God is not a body or even a soul (the life of the body). Rather, God is "the life of souls, the life of lives," more truthful and reliable than either bodies or the soul.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
9,037
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John 6:44 No man is able to come to me, except the Father which sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
John 6:65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man is able to come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.


ABILITY, in these two verses, speaks of the need for regeneration in order to come to Christ.
Does it state ... No man is able to "be given the gift of eternal life" except the Father which sent me draw him?

No it does not.
 
Mar 8, 2025
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Mankind does not need to be given anything to surrender to God. As creatures we naturally have something to give God and that is the surrender of ourselves. All must bow and submit our rebel souls to God.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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Does it state ... No man is able to "be given the gift of eternal life" except the Father which sent me draw him?

No it does not.
How does one who can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God come to know that God is drawing him? Your objection is funny because it is not to anything that Awelight actually said... that's called a straw man.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
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Mankind does not need to be given anything to surrender to God. As creatures we naturally have something to give God and that is the surrender of ourselves. All must bow and submit our rebel souls to God.
The Holy Spirit must convict man of sin......Their unbelief. Man can say yes or no.

We cannot "surrender" "bow" or "submit" UNTIL we are saved. And many believers never do......sadly.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
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How does one who can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God come to know that God is drawing him?
The Cross is hidden from no one. And the Holy Spirit never fails to convict anyone.

John 16~~7 But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, the [e]Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment: 9 regarding sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and regarding righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you no longer are going to see Me; 11 and regarding judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.”