OSAS, When does salvation take place?

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Drich

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Jun 10, 2026
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I was asked to start a new thread concerning this comment I made in another thread:

>If you read what He says in mat 7 we find out that we are not 'saved' till Judgement.

>21;“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22;Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23;And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

>Jesus is literally describing a day of judgement where most of us will be judged. The key to reconciling examples in the bible like the thief on the cross who was told today you will be with me in paradise; is that Jesus' judgement is the key. Meaning Jesus can judge you in this life as being saved like the thief on the cross, or He can condemn you as He did the pharisees who blasphemed the Holy Spirit in mat 7. Or it can happen at judgement as described in mat 7 "on that day." (Day of judgement.)

Once this judgement happens and Jesus judges you as being 'saved' you can never loose salvation.

We are not saved when we decide we want to be saved. Why? Because salvation is not a work it is a free gift from God. This means the Prays we pray, the plans of salvation we follow, the sacarments that we take, the creed we declare have nothing to do with biblical salvation. Jesus was asked in luke 10 How do we inherit eternal life:

25Now, a lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?”

27;He answered, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’

28He said to him, “You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live.”

Does this mean that all of the things we do to declare our intention to follow Jesus and be saved keeps us from salvation? No, I'm saying all Jesus said do is Love God with all of our ability to do so, if this means you must take communion and be baptized then for you This is absolutely what you must do to be saved at Judgement.
 
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Drich said:
>If you read what He says in mat 7 we find out that we are not 'saved' till Judgement.

>21;“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22;Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23;And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

>Jesus is literally describing a day of judgement where most of us will be judged.
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Hello Drich, thank you for getting this thread going for us :)(y)

As far as Matthew 7:21-23 revealing to us that we are not saved until the Day of Judgment, where does the passage tell us that :unsure: That the passage is referring to the Lord's judgment of the reprobate (and what will happen to them there and afterwards, and why) seems clear enough, but I see no inference there telling us about the saints and what's going to happen to us at or after the GWT Judgment (like we do in the case of the reprobate).

I'm probably missing something (I often do) so please point out why you believe that passage is addressing not only the reprobate, but the saints, as well. Thanks :)

That said, a number of things didn't add up for me the first time I read Matthew 7:22-23. First off, why did the Lord call the three deeds that the folks in Matthew 7:22 were claiming to have done (1. prophesying in Jesus' Name, 2. casting out demons in Jesus' Name, and 3. performing many wonders in Jesus' Name) "lawless deeds" :unsure: They don't sound like lawless deeds to me, and I'll wager that they don't to you either, so why do you think that He calls them, "lawless" :unsure:

Thanks :)

There's more, but I think that I'll stop here and wait to hear back from you about the above before going on.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy
 
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Drich said:
I was asked to start a new thread concerning this comment I made in another thread:

>If you read what He says in mat 7 we find out that we are not 'saved' till Judgement.

>21;“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22;Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23;And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

>Jesus is literally describing a day of judgement where most of us will be judged. The key to reconciling examples in the bible like the thief on the cross who was told today you will be with me in paradise; is that Jesus' judgement is the key. Meaning Jesus can judge you in this life as being saved like the thief on the cross, or He can condemn you as He did the pharisees who blasphemed the Holy Spirit in mat 7. Or it can happen at judgement as described in mat 7 "on that day." (Day of judgement.)

Once this judgement happens and Jesus judges you as being 'saved' you can never loose salvation.

We are not saved when we decide we want to be saved. Why? Because salvation is not a work it is a free gift from God. This means the Prays we pray, the plans of salvation we follow, the sacarments that we take, the creed we declare have nothing to do with biblical salvation. Jesus was asked in luke 10 How do we inherit eternal life:

25Now, a lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?”

27;He answered, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’

28He said to him, “You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live.”

Does this mean that all of the things we do to declare our intention to follow Jesus and be saved keeps us from salvation? No, I'm saying all Jesus said do is Love God with all of our ability to do so, if this means you must take communion and be baptized then for you This is absolutely what you must do to be saved at Judgement.
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There is initial justification when we put out trust in Christ. However, the Christian life is one of probation where we will meet our final justification at the Judgement, if we have endured too the end. This was the teaching of John Wesley and the early Methodists.
 
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Aussie52 said:
There is initial justification when we put out trust in Christ. However, the Christian life is one of probation where we will meet our final justification at the Judgement, if we have endured too the end. This was the teaching of John Wesley and the early Methodists.
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Hello Aussie52, can the Christian life really be seen as one of probation (one where we chose to "fight the good fight", "endure to the end" and are saved because of what we did .. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13), or is "enduring to the end" one of a believer's principal traits instead, a sign or mark of the believer that identifies who we really are, both to ourselves and to others, too :unsure: (because "enduring to the end" speaks of who we are, not only to what we end up doing, and that because we were made His workmanship (unlike those who only "claim" to be believers/who are CINO*).

IOW, those of us who have been given new hearts and new spirits, and the Holy Spirit .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27, who have been quickened/made alive spiritually (born again) .. e.g. Ephesians 2:4-5, John 3:3, who have then been saved/justified by God and made His workmanship (as wholly new creatures in Christ .. Ephesians 2:10, 2 Corinthians 5:17) and who have been sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption .. Ephesians 4:30, we are, in point of fact, the very ones who endure to the end (because we are the only ones who can & will). We know that we will because He promises us that we will and makes sure that we do .. e.g. Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25; 1 John 5:13; Jude 24-25.

So, it seems to me that we should take the Lord Jesus at His very word, for instance, "He who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me, has ~eternal~ life" (not temporal, conditional or probationary life, instead), and that we receive that which is the goal of our salvation, ETERNAL life, that is, at the moment when we first believe.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

John 5​
24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, ~has~ eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.​



*CINO = Christian In Name Only
 
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Deuteronomy said:
Hello Drich, thank you for getting this thread going for us :)(y)

As far as Matthew 7:21-23 revealing to us that we are not saved until the Day of Judgment, where does the passage tell us that :unsure: That the passage is referring to the Lord's judgment of the reprobate
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If reprobate means:

reprobate​

noun​

rep·ro·bate ˈre-prə-ˌbāt

: an unprincipled or depraved person : scoundrel, rogue

Miriam Webster

Then Jesus is seen judging the reprobates starting in verse 15“Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16You will know them by their fruit. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17Even so, every good tree bears good fruit. But a corrupt tree bears evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a corrupt tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Therefore, by their fruit you will know them.

(Fruit inspection is judgment we can do. Jesus then takes it a step further and gives us a picture of the great white throne judgement, where He judges more than just fruit. He judges their hearts:

21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonderful works in Your name?’ 23But then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from Me, you who practice evil."

Despite their holy appearance and good works Jesus like the two edged sword in heb 4:12 cuts their word thoughts and deed into deli thin slices and sees through all of the smoke to the core of their being and intentions.

(and what will happen to them there and afterwards, and why) seems clear enough, but I see no inference there telling us about the saints and what's going to happen to us at or after the GWT Judgment (like we do in the case of the reprobate).
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I am saying that mat 7 is an illustration/parable of the GWTJ
I'm probably missing something (I often do) so please point out why you believe that passage is addressing not only the reprobate, but the saints, as well. Thanks :)
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Why would it need to address anyone else but the reprobate? Jesus is concluding the sermon on the mount and is breaking new ground while doing it. He is speaking of the pharisaical class of people who physically obey the law but do not "produce fruit." They are not in keeping with the law. Jesus in this sermon is instituting a paradigm shift in how the law can be used to not only judge a man's works but how HE will be able to see through a man's surface deeds to the heart of the matter. It is at this point where Jesus judges us that it is made know whether or not we are 'saved.'


That said, a number of things didn't add up for me the first time I read Matthew 7:22-23. First off, why did the Lord call the three deeds that the folks in Matthew 7:22 were claiming to have done (1. prophesying in Jesus' Name, 2. casting out demons in Jesus' Name, and 3. performing many wonders in Jesus' Name) "lawless deeds" :unsure: They don't sound like lawless deeds to me, and I'll wager that they don't to you either, so why do you think that He calls them, "lawless" :unsure:
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The way i see it was the court magicians where able to do many of the same things Moses did for the Pharaoh. Meaning Satan can at least in appearance do the same things God can. So maybe Jesus is saying the Holy Spirit did not power these miracles, satan did. This is underscored by the fact that Jesus calls them evil doers. Evil doers would not be able to invoke the power of the Holy Spirit.

Also note that the anti christ will also come performing many sings and wonders.. It is safe to say that the Holy Spirit will not be powering His light show either.

Thanks :)There's more, but I think that I'll stop here and wait to hear back from you about the above before going on.
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It may be monday before i am back at a computer.
 
Deuteronomy said:
Hello Aussie52, can the Christian life really be seen as one of probation (one where we chose to "fight the good fight", "endure to the end" and are saved because of what we did .. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13), or is "enduring to the end" one of a believer's principal traits instead, a sign or mark of the believer that identifies who we really are, both to ourselves and to others, too :unsure: (because "enduring to the end" speaks of who we are, not only to what we end up doing, and that because we were made His workmanship (unlike those who only "claim" to be believers/who are CINO*).

IOW, those of us who have been given new hearts and new spirits, and the Holy Spirit .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27, who have been quickened/made alive spiritually (born again) .. e.g. Ephesians 2:4-5, John 3:3, who have then been saved/justified by God and made His workmanship (as wholly new creatures in Christ .. Ephesians 2:10, 2 Corinthians 5:17) and who have been sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption .. Ephesians 4:30, we are, in point of fact, the very ones who endure to the end (because we are the only ones who can & will). We know that we will because He promises us that we will and makes sure that we do .. e.g. Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25; 1 John 5:13; Jude 24-25.

So, it seems to me that we should take the Lord Jesus at His very word, for instance, "He who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me, has ~eternal~ life" (not temporal, conditional or probationary life, instead), and that we receive that which is the goal of our salvation, ETERNAL life, that is, at the moment when we first believe.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

John 5​
24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, ~has~ eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.​



*CINO = Christian In Name Only
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Yes, I believe Scriptures teach that eternal life is conditional. The very verse you end your post with proves my point. In the Gospel of John, every use of the word 'believes', is present continuous. That is 'continues to believe'. We are saved and remained saved as long as we continue to believe, trust in and cling to, the Lord Jesus Christ. To fail to do so, one forfeits eternal life. Read Book of Hebrews.
 
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Drich ---you meed to understand that In Matthew 7 the Jews are still under the 613 Laws ----Jesus hasn't gone to the Cross yet ----​


so in Matthew 7 Jesus is Teaching His Disciples here ---the difference between True and False Disciples

True and False Disciples​

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’

23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


He is telling them that there are False Prophets who think they are worthy to claim Salvation but they are not -----in the Old Testament you were Justified by Faith in obedience to God ----and it the same as today ------your justified by your Faith in Jesus Christ ---

Obedience to God's commands in the old Testament showed you had Faith in the unseen -------and trusted God---Noah built an Ark with no rain in sight --he trusted God would bring the FLOOD -----

Abraham left his family and home to obey God's command and trusted God would inform him of where he was going -----etc

Read Hebrews 11 ----by Faith these saints were justified -----

Today your saved as soon as you declare with your mouth ---which is speaking out your Faith that Jesus was God --He Died and was Resurrected Scripture says your Saved -----

Romans 10:9and 10

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved
Christ's Faith always requires a Positive Response -----as soon as you do as the scripture says ----the Holy Spirit comes and indwells you and you are heaven bound ----
Our Sanctification is on going ----that is Maturing in Christ's Faith to become more like Christ in our Character ---and since we will never reach our total Sanctification in our lifetime on this earth as our flesh remains weak -----we will reach it when we shed this corrupt flesh and go to be with the Lord ---but that has no bearing on being Saved ---we are saved here ---there is no Salvation available after you die -----Salvation is in the here and now ------there is no second chance for people to be saved after they die ------you face God and then Judgment

1781987904045.png
 
Aussie52 said:
I believe Scriptures teach that eternal life is conditional.
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Hello again Aussie52, I think that you can make a pretty good argument that the Scriptures teach that "salvation" is conditional and/or probationary, but I don't believe that you can do the same with, "eternal life", because ETERNAL life, by definition, is just that, ETERNAL, not temporary, nor probationary, nor conditional. IOW, in this case it has to be one or the other, because it simply can't be both!

Granted, it's a small point, but an important one, I think, because even though "salvation" and "eternal life" are closely related, they are not the same thing ("eternal life" is, in point of fact, the principal goal, so to speak, of our "salvation").

Of course, I also believe that a pretty good argument can be made from the Scriptures that salvation is permanent/cannot be lost (once it is truly possessed by a believer, that is) because God tells us that He will see to it (see us safely through this life to be with Him in Glory .. e.g. John 3:16, John 3:18, John 5:24, John 6:37-40, John 10:27-28, Philippians 1:6, Ephesians 4:30, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 7:25, 1 John 5:11-13, Jude 24-25).

So, while I'm aware of the arguments that are made by those who believe that true Christians can lose their salvation, I remain certain that this is not true, that we are eternally secure in Him instead. I say this because of the fact that our security, as believers, has been promised to us by the Father, purchased for us by the Lord Jesus, and sealed, then, by the Holy Spirit.

Aussie52 said:
The very verse you end your post with proves my point. In the Gospel of John, every use of the word 'believes', is present continuous. That is 'continues to believe'. We are saved and remained saved as long as we continue to believe, trust in and cling to, the Lord Jesus Christ. To fail to do so, one forfeits eternal life.
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Actually, I think that the Lord Jesus took special care in v24 to make sure that such a misunderstanding would not happen. I agree (of course) that the Greek present tense is (typically) understood to include an action that is presently occurring (in the moment), as well as one that continues to occur going forward, and five of the six verbs in that verse are in the Greek present tense (the sixth one, "has passed from death to life", is in the Greek perfect tense, instead, just FYI).

So, here it is again.

John 5​
24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.​

There are several problems with interpreting v24 in the way that you've chosen to, because while hearing/continuing to hear and believing/continuing to believe (in the manner that you stated) is all well and good when it's considered by itself/out-of-context, it only remains so briefly, UNTIL we run into the, "HAS eternal life", part of v24, that is, because if keeping ourselves faithful and obedient to the end is what is required to finally receive "eternal life" from God, how can the Lord Jesus possibly say (via the Greek present tense) that we come into possession of "eternal life" from the very moment that we first hear and believe :unsure:

Of course, just in case someone does misunderstand His meaning (concerning our immediately coming into possession of "eternal life" when we first believe), He quickly follows all of that up with these two additional/wonderful truths, that such a person (one who now possesses "eternal life") will 1. never be judged and condemned because 2. he/she has ALREADY passed from death to life.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

John 6 (37-39, excerpt)​
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me and, of all that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.​
​
John 10​
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; ​
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. ​
.
 
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Deuteronomy said:
Hello again Aussie52, I think that you can make a pretty good argument that the Scriptures teach that "salvation" is conditional and/or probationary, but I don't believe that you can do the same with, "eternal life", because ETERNAL life, by definition, is just that, ETERNAL, not temporary, nor probationary, nor conditional. IOW, in this case it has to be one or the other, because it simply can't be both!

Granted, it's a small point, but an important one, I think, because even though "salvation" and "eternal life" are closely related, they are not the same thing ("eternal life" is, in point of fact, the principal goal, so to speak, of our "salvation").

Of course, I also believe that a pretty good argument can be made from the Scriptures that salvation is permanent/cannot be lost (once it is truly possessed by a believer, that is) because God tells us that He will see to it (see us safely through this life to be with Him in Glory .. e.g. John 3:16, John 3:18, John 5:24, John 6:37-40, John 10:27-28, Philippians 1:6, Ephesians 4:30, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 7:25, 1 John 5:11-13, Jude 24-25).

So, while I'm aware of the arguments that are made by those who believe that true Christians can lose their salvation, I remain certain that this is not true, that we are eternally secure in Him instead. I say this because of the fact that our security, as believers, has been promised to us by the Father, purchased for us by the Lord Jesus, and sealed, then, by the Holy Spirit.


Actually, I think that the Lord Jesus took special care in v24 to make sure that such a misunderstanding would not happen. I agree (of course) that the Greek present tense is (typically) understood to include an action that is presently occurring (in the moment), as well as one that continues to occur going forward, and five of the six verbs in that verse are in the Greek present tense (the sixth one, "has passed from death to life", is in the Greek perfect tense, instead, just FYI).

So, here it is again.

John 5​
24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.​

There are several problems with interpreting v24 in the way that you've chosen to, because while hearing/continuing to hear and believing/continuing to believe (in the manner that you stated) is all well and good when it's considered by itself/out-of-context, it only remains so briefly, UNTIL we run into the, "HAS eternal life", part of v24, that is, because if keeping ourselves faithful and obedient to the end is what is required to finally receive "eternal life" from God, how can the Lord Jesus possibly say (via the Greek present tense) that we come into possession of "eternal life" from the very moment that we first hear and believe :unsure:

Of course, just in case someone does misunderstand His meaning (concerning our immediately coming into possession of "eternal life" when we first believe), He quickly follows all of that up with these two additional/wonderful truths, that such a person (one who now possesses "eternal life") will 1. never be judged and condemned because 2. he/she has ALREADY passed from death to life.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

John 6 (37-39, excerpt)​
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me and, of all that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.​
​
John 10​
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; ​
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. ​
.
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Thanks for your reply. In regard to eternal life, it is not something we have separate from the Son. In first John he writes, he who has the Son, has life. So, Eternal Life is something we have because we are in union with Him and not something we have independently of Him. Eternal Life flows out of 'relationship' with the Lord Jesus Christ. If that relationship can be severed, and it can, we would lose Eternal Life.
You quote John 10:27-28. The promise of Eternal Life v28 is CONDITIONED on one hearing and following the Lord Jesus.v27. To hear and follow the Lord Jesus implies faith and obedience. If we have faith and obey Him, we have Eternal Life. But if we as Christians fail to have faith and disobey Him, we lose Eternal Life. This is the warning in the Book of Hebrews, that if these Jewish Christians went back to Judaism, they would lose Eternal Life, their salvation.

In regard to Jn6:37-39, one cannot take a verse out of its context to prove a point ie. proof texting. In multiple places in the Gospel of John, salvation is shown to be conditional. Consider how many times John uses the word 'if'. Now the word if implies a condition before something will take place. Consider Jn 15:6, 'If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and withered: and they gather them up and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
So, Jn 6:37-39 is written in the context of other verses in the Gospel of John, that demonstrate the conditionality of salvation.
 
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studentoftheword said:

Drich ---you meed to understand that In Matthew 7 the Jews are still under the 613 Laws ----Jesus hasn't gone to the Cross yet ----​

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You do understand that The Law of Moses did not promise eternal life anywhere in the OT right? That deu 6 and 7 told the people under the OC what they got for following the 613 laws.. That amounts to Health, Wealth, God's protection, long life and a piece of the promise land. Nothing else, because at the tie the law was given no one knew anything about the after life. In fact even in Jesus' time there was a big debate between the two sects of temple priests over whether or not there was a resurrection/after life. The Pharisees believed in the After life while the Sadducees did not, but because the Sadducees where the temple leadership during the time of Christ, the official position of the temple was there was no after life.

What Jesus was teaching wasn't adding to the OC but rather establishing the rules and pay out for the new covenant/contract His blood was going to buy.
studentoftheword said:
so in Matthew 7 Jesus is Teaching His Disciples here ---the difference between True and False Disciples

True and False Disciples​

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’

23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Click to expand...

Indeed, A disciple is a student. Jesus was not teaching OT law or values. Look at all of the sermon on the mount (Mat 5 - 7/chapters) He was establishing new expanded rules and rewards, while at the same time not abolishing the old rules and regulations. In this sermon on the mt, Mat 7 lesson on false disciples can be found, meaning the teaching here does not support the 613 laws the way you think it does.

Jesus is saying it is not enough to appear spiritual and holy as many of the scribes and pharisees pretended to be holy.
studentoftheword said:
He is telling them that there are False Prophets
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Not prophets. in mat 7:21-23 is focused on false disciples.

studentoftheword said:
who think they are worthy to claim Salvation but they are not -----in the Old Testament you were Justified by Faith in obedience to God ----and it the same as today ------your justified by your Faith in Jesus Christ ---
Click to expand...
Which can be assessed by examining a person's "fruit." This is literally what the paragraph says just above the 'never knew you' passage:

15“Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16You will know them by their fruit. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17Even so, every good tree bears good fruit. But a corrupt tree bears evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a corrupt tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20&Therefore, by their fruit you will know them.

Jesus goes from talking about false prophets/teacher to talking about false disciples. This distinction is important because here in Jesus' new covenant, (Mat 7:15-20) He is saying that belief plus FRUIT/Deeds are needed to enter heaven. Then in mat 7:21-23 He is pointing out that not all what people would considered 'good deeds' are in fact from God. As it is possible for people to go through the motions of good works, but not be in compliance with God.

So the massage here is Works are needed mat 7:6You will know them by their fruit. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17Even so, every good tree bears good fruit. But a corrupt tree bears evil fruit.

So we must inspect fruit, but at the same time do not be fooled, as not all fruit are "Good fruit."

studentoftheword said:
Obedience to God's commands in the old Testament showed you had Faith in the unseen -------and trusted God---Noah built an Ark with no rain in sight --he trusted God would bring the FLOOD -----

Abraham left his family and home to obey God's command and trusted God would inform him of where he was going -----etc

Read Hebrews 11 ----by Faith these saints were justified -----
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What makes you think I haven't?
Nothing I've said here contradicts what is said in hebrews 11.

studentoftheword said:
Today your saved as soon as you declare with your mouth ---which is speaking out your Faith that Jesus was God --He Died and was Resurrected Scripture says your Saved -----
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That's not what romans 10: 9- 10 says. Read it again:
studentoftheword said:
Romans 10:9and 10

9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
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The passage says You Will Be... Saved. Not you are saved.
This phrase "You will be saved" points to some point in the future. If Paul intended to say from the moment you first believed, you are saved then he would have said so. He says believe and you WILL BE Saved.

studentoftheword said:
10;For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved
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Everything after this: You made up and paired it with real scripture to give your words more weight. Dude if you have to misrepresent scripture to make your argument work, then your whole 'plan of salvation fails at the point where your words speak where the bible is silent.
studentoftheword said:
Christ's Faith always requires a Positive Response -----as soon as you do as the scripture says ----the Holy Spirit comes and indwells you and you are heaven bound ----
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Where?

studentoftheword said:
Our Sanctification is on going ----that is Maturing in Christ's Faith to become more like Christ in our Character ---and since we will never reach our total Sanctification in our lifetime on this earth as our flesh remains weak -----we will reach it when we shed this corrupt flesh and go to be with the Lord ---but that has no bearing on being Saved ---we are saved here ---there is no Salvation available after you die -----Salvation is in the here and now ------there is no second chance for people to be saved after they die ------you face God and then Judgment
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If everyone who believes is saved from that moment on then why Is Jesus judging people "On that Day" Who clearly believe and confess with their mouth that Jesus is "Lord, Lord." (To say His name/title twice is an emphatic declaration that they believe Jesus is Lord, and yet Jesus point out He never knew them meaning they where NEVER saved?

If one can Never be saved even though they clearly believe that Jesus is Lord then your understanding of the passage is in error, and does not account for the contradiction in Jesus teaching found in mat 7 that clearly show people who believe and are not saved.
studentoftheword said:
View attachment 290762
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irrelevant.
 
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Aussie52 said:
There is initial justification when we put out trust in Christ. However, the Christian life is one of probation where we will meet our final justification at the Judgement, if we have endured too the end. This was the teaching of John Wesley and the early Methodists.
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Jesus do speak of abiding in him and enduring to the end, this is really what Christ did teach.
 
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studentoftheword said:
Christ's Faith always requires a Positive Response -----as soon as you do as the scripture says ----the Holy Spirit comes and indwells you and you are heaven bound ----
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Drich​

Where?

James 2:14-17: Faith requires ‘action’​


Noah obeyed and made the Ark
Abraham ---left his home and when where God directed him ---etc --etc
 
studentoftheword said:

Drich​

Where?

James 2:14-17: Faith requires ‘action’​


Noah obeyed and made the Ark
Abraham ---left his home and when where God directed him ---etc --etc
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James 2 does not say:

Christ's Faith always requires a Positive Response -----as soon as you do as the scripture says ----the Holy Spirit comes and indwells you and you are heaven bound ----
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Aussie52 said:
Yes, I believe Scriptures teach that eternal life is conditional. The very verse you end your post with proves my point. In the Gospel of John, every use of the word 'believes', is present continuous. That is 'continues to believe'. We are saved and remained saved as long as we continue to believe, trust in and cling to, the Lord Jesus Christ. To fail to do so, one forfeits eternal life. Read Book of Hebrews.
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So what exactly must one do and not do throughout their Christian life to obtain eternal life? Please be specific.
 
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@Drich​


Read and internalize this---

Faith Receives ----so you have to Receive Jesus in your heart to be saved ----Your receiving is the positive responsive to Salvation

You seem to have no understanding what Christ's faith is ------


Strong's Concordance on Christ's Faith
Faith is the divine response, wrought in man, by God"

"Faith always pre-supposes revelation"

"Faith is always a response to revelation"

"Faith precedes works, and is not something merely deduced by reason of existing"
"
Faith is the divine response, wrought in man, by God"

"Faith always has the element of assurance, certainty and confidence . . . and evidential value substantiating the thing we hope for .

with faith, there is no strain or tension; rather, it has the element of assurance and confidence in it . . .


Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief , . The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4

Worth repeating Folks -------and therefore distinct from human belief

We have made faith a condition of mind, when it is a divinely imparted grace of the heart . . . we can receive faith only as he gives it . . . you cannot manufacture faith, you can not work it up . . . you can believe a promise, and at the same time not have the faith to appropriate it . . .

genuine, Scriptural faith is not our ability to ‘count it done,’ but is the deep consciousness divinely imparted to the heart of man that it is done, . . . it is the faith that only God can give .

Faith (4102/pistis) involves belief but it goes beyond human believing because it involves the personal revelation (inworking) of God.


4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty).
In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).

faith ("divine persuasion"). It is God's warranty that guarantees the fulfillment of the revelation He births within the receptive believer (cf. 1 Jn 5:4 with Heb 11:1).

Worth Repeating Folks ------births within the receptive believer
We have free will to Accept or Reject ------God's Saving Faith

In sum, faith (4102/pistis) is a persuasion from God that we receive as He grants impulse

Faith is always the work of God and involves hearing His voice – whereby the believer lays hold of His preferred-will
In Scripture, faith and belief are not exactly the same. Faith always comes from God and involves His revelation therefore faith is beyond belief!

Whatever is not of faith (4102/pistis) is sin." Heb 11:6: "And without faith (4102/pistis) it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him"

"Faith always pre-supposes revelation"
divi"Faith is always a response to ane revelation"
"Faith precedes works, and is not something merely deduced by reason of existing"
"Faith is the divine response, wrought in man, by God"
"Faith always has the element of assurance, certainty and confidence . . . and evidential value substantiating the thing we hope for .
with faith, there is no strain or tension; rather, it has the element of assurance and confidence in it . . .

if there is strain or tension . . . trying to persuade yourself to keep from doubting,
you can be quite sure that it is not faith . . .

faith is not the law of mathematical probability,

"Faith is the organ which enables people to see the invisible order===
 
Aussie52 said:
One must continue to walk in faith and obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ.
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You clearly missed the "be specific" part. What specifically does that faith look like. What does that obedience look like? What is the quantity and quality? What specific actions and inactions constitute "obedience" to the Lord Jesus Christ? We're talking about eternal life here, so God wouldn't make it hard to know that.
 
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Faith: to trust in, to rely upon, to cling to, the Lord Jesus, moment by moment.
Obedience; To walk in the light, to do those things you are aware God wants you to do.
 
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NightTwister said:
So you can't say. We just have to wait and see. Got it.
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NT, are you playing games with these guys?

The thief on the cross had salvation the minute he accepted the Savior. It is just that simple for everyone.

We are, however, expected to follow him. And in that effort he continues to forgive. But there is a point of willful disobedience. So it is best not to go there. Like, to know and then willfully disengage from the Savior. Bad choice.

Stay engaged to become a better person. If you turn wicked, then comes rejection.

But most do not turn wicked. They simply disengage and lose traction. Probably from shame and so forth. Just set that aside and stay engaged. Work through the difficulty and remain close. You are his, and he will keep you.

It is "once saved always saved" if you stay close to the Savior. Even if you sin and stay engaged. But not if you turn wicked.

And by the way, wickedness looks like murder etc. Short of that, your salvation is sure because he claims you. A sinner, who is willing to repent and follow Jesus Christ.

Just my thoughts, thank you.
 
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