"The Meaning of Foreknew in Romans 8:29"

Dave123 · Jun 25, 2026

"The Meaning of Foreknew in Romans 8:29"

I copied this out of a book that I once owned called "The Five Points of Calvinism, Defined, Defended and documented" about twenty years ago. You'll still find it floating around the internet on some forums. I wanted to confront that interpretation that I once defended.

To my surprise, I found it, but not by me, rather, it was on moergism.com. Perhaps they copied my copy, as it still has some mistakes pointed out in the spell checker, mostly with spacing that I just now fixed.

You should read it, as some of the points made in that article I'll be discussing and using for proof of my position. You can read it here if you like.

The Meaning of "FOREKNEW" in Romans 8:29 | Monergism

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

QUOTE:
God has always possessed perfect knowledge of all creatures and of all events. There has never been a time when anything past, present, or future was not fully known to Him.* But it is not His knowledge of future events (of what people would do, etc.) which is referred to in Romans 8:29,30, for Paul clearly states that those whom He foreknew He predestined, He called, He justified, etc. Since all men are not predestined, called, and justified, it follows that all men were not foreknown by God in the sense spoken of in verse 29.

It is for this reason that the Arminians are forced to add some qualifying notion. They read into the passage some idea not contained in the language itself such as those whom He foreknew would believe etc., He predestined, called and justified. But according to the Biblical usage of the words “know,” “knew,” and “foreknew” there is not the least need to make such an addition, and since it is unnecessary, it is improper. When the Bible speaks of God knowing particular individuals, it often means that He has special regard for them, that they are the objects of His affection and concern. For example in Amos 3:2, God, speaking to Israel says, “You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.” The Lord knows about all the families of the earth, but He knew Israel in a special way.* They were His chosen people whom He had set His heart upon. See Deuteronomy 7:7,8; 10:15. Because Israel was His in a special sense He chastised them, cf. Hebrews 12:5,6.*God, speaking to Jeremiah, said, “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you,” (Jeremiah 1:5). The meaning here is not that God knew about Jeremiah but that He had a special regard for the prophet before He formed him in his mother’s womb. Jesus also used the word “knew” in the sense of personal, intimate awareness. “On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers’ “ (Matt. 7:22,23). Our Lord cannot be understood here as saying, I knew nothing about you, for it is quite evident that He knew all too much about them – their evil character and evil works; hence, His meaning must be, I never knew you intimately nor personally, I never regarded you as the objects of my favor or love. Paul uses the word in the same way in I Corinthians 8:3, “But if one loves God, one is known by him,” and also II Timothy 2:19, “the Lord knows those who are His.” The Lord knows about all men but He only knows those “who love Him, who are called according to His purpose” (Rom 8:28) – those who are His! ...END QUOTE

I would add that Calvinism is also adding a qualifying notion. That being, Whom He foreknew [from the foundations of the world]. That simply is assumed into the text. If that was what was meant, it would be easy to just say it, as Peter did in 1 Peter 1:20

1 Peter 1:2 He indeed was foreordained [foreknew] before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

(ESV) "He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you"

The same Greek word for "foreordained" in 1 Peter 1:20 and "foreknew" in Romans 8:29. Also see John 17:24.

John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

So foreknown [from the foundations of the world] "Foundations of the world" is assumed by the Calvinist interpretation. It sounds reasonable, right? There is predestination right after that.

Let me offer some context that Calvinism doesn't use because their understanding of Scripture limits that context. In Romans 8:28-28, Paul is speaking of true OT believers. That's the flow of the whole book in context, and the more immediate context is the same. They were foreknown as believers already, and were given to the Son by the Father, so that He would not lose one of them, thus predestined to be what? Conformed to the the image of His Son. These were already appointed to eternal life as true OT believers, and were thus foreknown by God, but would need to make the transition to the Gospel message as believers. These He also called (with the Gospel), His Sheep will hear His voice. Those He called, He also justified [in Christ, Pentecost and beyond] also see Romans 3:25. And those He justified, He glorified.

It's actually fits perfectly. If you think that sounds wrong, consider that Paul tells us who is foreknown in Romans 11:2.

Romans 11:1-5 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, "Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

It's Israel. That's the same point that the five points of Calvinism was making, they just didn't examine that Scripture with the entire context, since most Calvinists believe that there is no transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament. That there is no difference in the way God deals with people from one to the other. That OT believers were saved and already had all the benefits of being in Christ. I disagree with that. Listen to the argument made in that article, it actually supports what I'm saying.

This Gospel that these Jews were hearing was completely different from what they expected and understood. Paul is explaining the Law verses grace. How physical Israel is different from Spiritual Israel. How God chastising the Jews and including the Gentiles was part of His eternal plan. How those Jews who God had chastised could still be a part of that plan of salvation. It's a covenant by faith, not of the Law. Peter makes the same kind of Argument to similar minded Jews of that time who were also ignorant as to what was happening in Acts1-2.

Acts 2:22-23 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know-- Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

To use the same argument as the article, I think its not part of the Text, and therefore not necessary to add [from the foundations of the world] to the meaning of the word foreknew. I understand why that idea was assumed into the term foreknew from the Calvinist framework, but I believe that framework lacks the proper context. As the writer points out, God is speaking of a particular people who He foreloved. That's Israel. And they, the true believers, spiritual Israel, were predestined to take the next step in that transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament and come to faith in Jesus Christ, thus placing them in Christ, [after Pentecost] and as a result, being justified in Him and being conformed to His image.

ChristRoseFromTheDead · Jun 25, 2026

When Paul said God hasn't cast away those whom he foreknew he was referring to the believing elect remnant of Israel. He was not speaking of all Israel. That is made obvious in the next verses describing the remnant that existed in Elijah's day. The believing remnant was and always has been Israel; the rest were impostors, ie., Israel in name only

Aussie52 · Jun 26, 2026

Dave123 said:
"The Meaning of Foreknew in Romans 8:29"

I copied this out of a book that I once owned called "The Five Points of Calvinism, Defined, Defended and documented" about twenty years ago. You'll still find it floating around the internet on some forums. I wanted to confront that interpretation that I once defended.

To my surprise, I found it, but not by me, rather, it was on moergism.com. Perhaps they copied my copy, as it still has some mistakes pointed out in the spell checker, mostly with spacing that I just now fixed.

You should read it, as some of the points made in that article I'll be discussing and using for proof of my position. You can read it here if you like.

The Meaning of "FOREKNEW" in Romans 8:29 | Monergism

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

QUOTE:
God has always possessed perfect knowledge of all creatures and of all events. There has never been a time when anything past, present, or future was not fully known to Him.* But it is not His knowledge of future events (of what people would do, etc.) which is referred to in Romans 8:29,30, for Paul clearly states that those whom He foreknew He predestined, He called, He justified, etc. Since all men are not predestined, called, and justified, it follows that all men were not foreknown by God in the sense spoken of in verse 29.

It is for this reason that the Arminians are forced to add some qualifying notion. They read into the passage some idea not contained in the language itself such as those whom He foreknew would believe etc., He predestined, called and justified. But according to the Biblical usage of the words “know,” “knew,” and “foreknew” there is not the least need to make such an addition, and since it is unnecessary, it is improper. When the Bible speaks of God knowing particular individuals, it often means that He has special regard for them, that they are the objects of His affection and concern. For example in Amos 3:2, God, speaking to Israel says, “You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.” The Lord knows about all the families of the earth, but He knew Israel in a special way.* They were His chosen people whom He had set His heart upon. See Deuteronomy 7:7,8; 10:15. Because Israel was His in a special sense He chastised them, cf. Hebrews 12:5,6.*God, speaking to Jeremiah, said, “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you,” (Jeremiah 1:5). The meaning here is not that God knew about Jeremiah but that He had a special regard for the prophet before He formed him in his mother’s womb. Jesus also used the word “knew” in the sense of personal, intimate awareness. “On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers’ “ (Matt. 7:22,23). Our Lord cannot be understood here as saying, I knew nothing about you, for it is quite evident that He knew all too much about them – their evil character and evil works; hence, His meaning must be, I never knew you intimately nor personally, I never regarded you as the objects of my favor or love. Paul uses the word in the same way in I Corinthians 8:3, “But if one loves God, one is known by him,” and also II Timothy 2:19, “the Lord knows those who are His.” The Lord knows about all men but He only knows those “who love Him, who are called according to His purpose” (Rom 8:28) – those who are His! ...END QUOTE

I would add that Calvinism is also adding a qualifying notion. That being, Whom He foreknew [from the foundations of the world]. That simply is assumed into the text. If that was what was meant, it would be easy to just say it, as Peter did in 1 Peter 1:20

1 Peter 1:2 He indeed was foreordained [foreknew] before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

(ESV) "He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you"

The same Greek word for "foreordained" in 1 Peter 1:20 and "foreknew" in Romans 8:29. Also see John 17:24.

John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

So foreknown [from the foundations of the world] "Foundations of the world" is assumed by the Calvinist interpretation. It sounds reasonable, right? There is predestination right after that.

Let me offer some context that Calvinism doesn't use because their understanding of Scripture limits that context. In Romans 8:28-28, Paul is speaking of true OT believers. That's the flow of the whole book in context, and the more immediate context is the same. They were foreknown as believers already, and were given to the Son by the Father, so that He would not lose one of them, thus predestined to be what? Conformed to the the image of His Son. These were already appointed to eternal life as true OT believers, and were thus foreknown by God, but would need to make the transition to the Gospel message as believers. These He also called (with the Gospel), His Sheep will hear His voice. Those He called, He also justified [in Christ, Pentecost and beyond] also see Romans 3:25. And those He justified, He glorified.

It's actually fits perfectly. If you think that sounds wrong, consider that Paul tells us who is foreknown in Romans 11:2.

Romans 11:1-5 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, "Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

It's Israel. That's the same point that the five points of Calvinism was making, they just didn't examine that Scripture with the entire context, since most Calvinists believe that there is no transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament. That there is no difference in the way God deals with people from one to the other. That OT believers were saved and already had all the benefits of being in Christ. I disagree with that. Listen to the argument made in that article, it actually supports what I'm saying.

This Gospel that these Jews were hearing was completely different from what they expected and understood. Paul is explaining the Law verses grace. How physical Israel is different from Spiritual Israel. How God chastising the Jews and including the Gentiles was part of His eternal plan. How those Jews who God had chastised could still be a part of that plan of salvation. It's a covenant by faith, not of the Law. Peter makes the same kind of Argument to similar minded Jews of that time who were also ignorant as to what was happening in Acts1-2.

Acts 2:22-23 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know-- Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

To use the same argument as the article, I think its not part of the Text, and therefore not necessary to add [from the foundations of the world] to the meaning of the word foreknew. I understand why that idea was assumed into the term foreknew from the Calvinist framework, but I believe that framework lacks the proper context. As the writer points out, God is speaking of a particular people who He foreloved. That's Israel. And they, the true believers, spiritual Israel, were predestined to take the next step in that transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament and come to faith in Jesus Christ, thus placing them in Christ, [after Pentecost] and as a result, being justified in Him and being conformed to His image.

From my own study into the word 'foreknow', it simply means to have knowledge of something beforehand. It doesn't mean foreordination or pre-loved. These ideas are forced onto the word from Calvinist theology.

timf · Jun 26, 2026

The establishment of a category can be seen as the foreknowledge that some would enter this category.

lrs68 · Jun 26, 2026

It's talking about the Ancient Hebrew peoples that we see held captive in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Once those specific things God did for them we read in Romans 8 was applied to them they were freed and went to Heaven.

Dave123 · Jun 26, 2026

Aussie52 said:
From my own study into the word 'foreknow', it simply means to have knowledge of something beforehand. It doesn't mean foreordination or pre-loved. These ideas are forced onto the word from Calvinist theology.

Actually, the word "foreknew" does have a pregnant meaning in Scripture, and does carry with it the meaning of foreloved. It's important to note that it's not 'what' He foreknew, but rather it's 'who' He foreknew. It's not just knowing of someone, God knows of everyone. It's knowing someone intimately.

1 Corinthians 8:3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.

D

JohnRH · Jun 26, 2026

For whom God knew in the past (earlier saints), He ALSO (along with us who are already saved) did predestinate - not to salvation, but to conformity to the image of His Son. Whom He did predestinate to conformity, them He also called to practical conformity. Whom He called to conformity, them He also (post-salvation) justified when failing to conform, Those earlier saints He justified, He glorified - in the sense of 'honored' (past tense). "Glorified" is past tense just like all the other words; keep it past tense.

This interpretation fits the context; it's sandwiched between 'intercession for already-saved people' in verses 27 & 34.

Dave123 · Jun 26, 2026

JohnRH said:
For whom God knew in the past (earlier saints), He ALSO (along with us who are already saved) did predestinate - not to salvation, but to conformity to the image of His Son.

Isn't being conformed to to the image of His Son the result of salvation, a true believer? It's another way of saying practical sanctification, that must assume positional sanctification, right?

Like Paul said in Galatians 3:2-3, that process of practical sanctification begins with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Legality settled), beginning the process of being perfected practically. The OT believers did not have this indwelling yet. It was owed to them, the life.

Aussie52 · Jun 26, 2026

Dave123 said:
Actually, the word "foreknew" does have a pregnant meaning in Scripture, and does carry with it the meaning of foreloved. It's important to note that it's not 'what' He foreknew, but rather it's 'who' He foreknew. It's not just knowing of someone, God knows of everyone. It's knowing someone intimately.

1 Corinthians 8:3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.

D

With all due respect, the word foreknow as used in the NT does not carry the meaning of foreloved. That is just a Calvinist view forced onto Scripture.

tablet123 · Jun 26, 2026

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Romans 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

It is foreknew which means God knew them in the past and they had a relationship with Him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

God calls things that have not happened yet as though they already happened for if it is a plan of God in the beginning to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

But it happened in the future.

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

But it happened in the future.

1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth(John 1:1,3,14).

But was a plan for the future and without that plan God would of not created anything He created.

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4. Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

God wants all people to be saved.

Foreknow, predestination means that God had the plan to give mankind salvation in the beginning but this salvation is to whoever wants it for He wants all people to be saved.

EmethAlethia · Jun 26, 2026

Dave123 said:
"The Meaning of Foreknew in Romans 8:29"

QUOTE:
God has always possessed perfect knowledge of all creatures and of all events. There has never been a time when anything past, present, or future was not fully known to Him.* But it is not His knowledge of future events (of what people would do, etc.) which is referred to in Romans 8:29,30, for Paul clearly states that those whom He foreknew He predestined, He called, He justified, etc. Since all men are not predestined, called, and justified, it follows that all men were not foreknown by God in the sense spoken of in verse 29.

I agree ... so far.

Dave123 said:
It is for this reason that the Arminians are forced to add some qualifying notion. They read into the passage some idea not contained in the language itself such as those whom He foreknew would believe etc., He predestined, called and justified. But according to the Biblical usage of the words “know,” “knew,” and “foreknew” there is not the least need to make such an addition, and since it is unnecessary, it is improper.

Well, I'm not an Arminian or a Calvinist. I'm a Calviminian. LOL And I'm open to altering my views, but that is where my beliefs are falling right now. I agree, if it starts with predestination the first word, "to know beforehand" makes no sense at all. God knows all things "beforehand".

Dave123 said:
When the Bible speaks of God knowing particular individuals, it often means that He has special regard for them, that they are the objects of His affection and concern.

Adam knew Eve and she conceived. The problem is, what you are suggesting doesn't fit either, but let's continue.

Dave123 said:
For example in Amos 3:2, Deuteronomy 7:7,8; 10:15. Hebrews 12:5,6.*God, speaking to Jeremiah, said, “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you,” (Jeremiah 1:5). The meaning here is not that God knew about Jeremiah but that He had a special regard for the prophet before He formed him in his mother’s womb.

Because God knew all that Jerimiah would be He had special affection for him. But His foreknowledge did not in any way change what Jerimiah became. It's just knowledge of what He would be. But that's the same for everyone saved or lost.

Dave123 said:
Jesus also used the word “knew” in the sense of personal, intimate awareness. “On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers’ “ (Matt. 7:22,23).

ok. gone to heaven, standing in judgment ... foreknowledge. God never knew them ... what's that have to do with "special affection"?

Dave123 said:
Our Lord cannot be understood here as saying, I knew nothing about you, for it is quite evident that He knew all too much about them – their evil character and evil works; hence, His meaning must be, I never knew you intimately nor personally, I never regarded you as the objects of my favor or love. Paul uses the word in the same way in I Corinthians 8:3, “But if one loves God, one is known by him,” and also II Timothy 2:19, “the Lord knows those who are His.” The Lord knows about all men but He only knows those “who love Him, who are called according to His purpose” (Rom 8:28) – those who are His! ...END QUOTE

Ok, but this has nothing at all to do with predestination. Just God foreknew everything. it also doesn't explain that added word in Romans.

Dave123 said:
1 Peter 1:20, 1Pe. 1:2, 1 Peter 1:20, 8:29. Also see John 17:24.

What's Joh. 17:24 got to do with anything?

Dave123 said:
Romans 11:1-5 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, "Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

All of Romans 9-11, including the illustrations in chapter 9, is about how God could (Temporarily) set aside the Nation of Israel and work with the Gentiles. That's it. Nothing more and nothing less. The good news is at the end of chapter 11, because God extended us mercy, He is able to extend mercy to Israel and graft them in again.

Think about this:

1.) If we start with the beliefs we know are true, and thus

2.) We select out the data we can use to prove our beliefs are true and also,

3.) We gather all the data we can find to prove all opposing beliefs are false,

and then, since all our beliefs are unquestionably true,

4.) We know all "correct" interpretations of all "valid" data must align with our beliefs, right?

And then we judge who loves truth, and who has the truth, based on their alignment with our core beliefs and selected data and interpretations. Everyone passes their own tests, and all the 10,000 different non-Christian and 45,000 different Christian belief groups have absolutely everything they need to hold fast to what they "want to believe" "as" truth. And what if God gives everyone everything they need ...

What if God really does desire absolutely everyone who ever lived to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth? 1Ti. 2:3-6 You know ... just what it says. what "If" God actually truly sought all men. Rom. 1:18-21 What if it were a "real" seeking and not faked and absolutely every man "Knew" God Rom. 1:21 Yep. same word as in proginosko "foreknowledge". What if God is so sure He got everyone everything they needed that He could state no man has any excuse at all? Rom. 1:20

What if God is so sure He got absolutely every human being absolutely everything they needed to "choose" to come to Him that He lets absolutely everyone who does not come to saving faith judge whether or not He truly was faithful to do these things to the point where they could choose Him? Rom. 3:3-4 What if our sovereign Lord lets us choose to suppress, reject, exchange, ... the truth of God that He builds into every man for the lies they want to believe, and then gives real consequences for real choices? Rom. 1:18-32

What if, Despite God’s desires 1Ti. 2:3-4, very “Few” men “Choose” to “receive a love of the truth so as to be saved” both in Rom. 1:18-32 and 2Th. 2:10-12, and thus very "few" choose the "path" leading to the very narrow gate leading to life ... i.e. saving faith in the truth. Same wording as in 1Ti. 2:3-4 is used in 2Th. 2:13 Thus very few will be sealed “in Him” with the Holy Spirit. 2Th. 2:13, Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-13, Eph. 1:13-14 What "If" God really doesn’t always get everything He desires because He chooses to let every human being choose? Mat. 23:37

While God's 1st "seeking" of "all" men ends when the wrong choice is made in 2Th. 2:10, and He, not only stops "seeking" them, He actually hardens them into the beliefs they love, 2Th. 2:11?

What if there is a "second" "seeking" of God the Father, of men who He "Foreknew" would make the correct choice? What if those who make the correct choice are continuously sought by the Father until He gets them. Joh. 4:23-24, 2Th. 2:10-13, Joh. 6:37, 39, Joh. 10:29, Joh. 17:2, 6-11, 24, Act. 13:48, Php. 1:29, 2Th. 2:13-14, 2Ti. 1:9, 2Th. 1:10 If they received a love of truth, and don't just love what they believe to be truth, they never stop seeking truth, Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-13 (Present tense, ongoing continuous, habitual action that never stops. "If" you stop you don't get the promise in Luk. 11:13) they never stop proving all things over and over again and holding fast to what is being proven good/true, 1Th. 5:21

Does anyone keep seeking for what they know they've found? Asking for what they know they have already received? ... Yet it is those who never stop the process who are guaranteed by God to receive the Holy Spirit eventually. Almost all the people in the 10,000 non-Christian and 45,000 different "Christian" belief groups has stopped seeking. Almost all know they love truth and believe the truth. Almost all use the Methodology listed above.

PaulThomson · Jun 27, 2026

JohnRH said:
For whom God knew in the past (earlier saints), He ALSO (along with us who are already saved) did predestinate - not to salvation, but to conformity to the image of His Son. Whom He did predestinate to conformity, them He also called to practical conformity. Whom He called to conformity, them He also (post-salvation) justified when failing to conform, Those earlier saints He justified, He glorified - in the sense of 'honored' (past tense). "Glorified" is past tense just like all the other words; keep it past tense.

This interpretation fits the context; it's sandwiched between 'intercession for already-saved people' in verses 27 & 34.

The aorist is not a past tense.

PaulThomson · Jun 27, 2026

Dave123 said:
"The Meaning of Foreknew in Romans 8:29”….

The Meaning of "FOREKNEW" in Romans 8:29 | Monergism

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

QUOTE:
God has always possessed perfect knowledge of all creatures and of all events. There has never been a time when anything past, present, or future was not fully known to Him.* But it is not His knowledge of future events (of what people would do, etc.) which is referred to in Romans 8:29,30, for Paul clearly states that those whom He foreknew He predestined, He called, He justified, etc. Since all men are not predestined, called, and justified, it follows that all men were not foreknown by God in the sense spoken of in verse 29.

Scripture never asserts that "There has never been a time when anything… future was not fully known to Him.*

Dave123 said:
Let me offer some context that Calvinism doesn't use because their understanding of Scripture limits that context. In Romans 8:28-28, Paul is speaking of true OT believers. That's the flow of the whole book in context, and the more immediate context is the same. They were foreknown as believers already, and were given to the Son by the Father, so that He would not lose one of them, thus predestined to be what? Conformed to the the image of His Son. These were already appointed to eternal life as true OT believers, and were thus foreknown by God, but would need to make the transition to the Gospel message as believers. These He also called (with the Gospel), His Sheep will hear His voice. Those He called, He also justified [in Christ, Pentecost and beyond] also see Romans 3:25. And those He justified, He glorified.

It's actually fits perfectly. If you think that sounds wrong, consider that Paul tells us who is foreknown in Romans 11:2.

Romans 11:1-5 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, "Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

It's Israel. That's the same point that the five points of Calvinism was making, they just didn't examine that Scripture with the entire context, since most Calvinists believe that there is no transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament. That there is no difference in the way God deals with people from one to the other. That OT believers were saved and already had all the benefits of being in Christ. I disagree with that. Listen to the argument made in that article, it actually supports what I'm saying.

This Gospel that these Jews were hearing was completely different from what they expected and understood. Paul is explaining the Law verses grace. How physical Israel is different from Spiritual Israel. How God chastising the Jews and including the Gentiles was part of His eternal plan. How those Jews who God had chastised could still be a part of that plan of salvation. It's a covenant by faith, not of the Law. Peter makes the same kind of Argument to similar minded Jews of that time who were also ignorant as to what was happening in Acts1-2.

Acts 2:22-23 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know-- Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

To use the same argument as the article, I think its not part of the Text, and therefore not necessary to add [from the foundations of the world] to the meaning of the word foreknew. I understand why that idea was assumed into the term foreknew from the Calvinist framework, but I believe that framework lacks the proper context. As the writer points out, God is speaking of a particular people who He foreloved. That's Israel. And they, the true believers, spiritual Israel, were predestined to take the next step in that transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament and come to faith in Jesus Christ, thus placing them in Christ, [after Pentecost] and as a result, being justified in Him and being conformed to His image.

Act 26:4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
Act 26:5 Which knew (proginOskontes, present active participle - foreknowing) me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Act 26:6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers:

Does proginOskontes here mean the Jews foreknowing Saul from before the foundation of the world? Or the jews fore-loving Saul from before Saul's conversion? or the Jews knowing Saul and his way of life before his conversion?

Why cannot proegnO in Rom. 8:29 simply mean that God knew before their conversion, as in He knew them and their manner of life before their conversion, those who have begun to love Him? That would seem to me to be a simplest and reasonable reading of the text without smuggling theological presuppositions into the text.

IMO, both those who accept God’s call and those who refuse His call are foreknown by God before their being called in the same way as Paul was foreknown by his contemporaries before His conversion.

GWH · Jun 27, 2026

Dave123 said:
"The Meaning of Foreknew in Romans 8:29"

I copied this out of a book that I once owned called "The Five Points of Calvinism, Defined, Defended and documented" about twenty years ago. You'll still find it floating around the internet on some forums. I wanted to confront that interpretation that I once defended.

To my surprise, I found it, but not by me, rather, it was on moergism.com. Perhaps they copied my copy, as it still has some mistakes pointed out in the spell checker, mostly with spacing that I just now fixed.

You should read it, as some of the points made in that article I'll be discussing and using for proof of my position. You can read it here if you like.

The Meaning of "FOREKNEW" in Romans 8:29 | Monergism

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

QUOTE:
God has always possessed perfect knowledge of all creatures and of all events. There has never been a time when anything past, present, or future was not fully known to Him.* But it is not His knowledge of future events (of what people would do, etc.) which is referred to in Romans 8:29,30, for Paul clearly states that those whom He foreknew He predestined, He called, He justified, etc. Since all men are not predestined, called, and justified, it follows that all men were not foreknown by God in the sense spoken of in verse 29.

It is for this reason that the Arminians are forced to add some qualifying notion. They read into the passage some idea not contained in the language itself such as those whom He foreknew would believe etc., He predestined, called and justified. But according to the Biblical usage of the words “know,” “knew,” and “foreknew” there is not the least need to make such an addition, and since it is unnecessary, it is improper. When the Bible speaks of God knowing particular individuals, it often means that He has special regard for them, that they are the objects of His affection and concern. For example in Amos 3:2, God, speaking to Israel says, “You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.” The Lord knows about all the families of the earth, but He knew Israel in a special way.* They were His chosen people whom He had set His heart upon. See Deuteronomy 7:7,8; 10:15. Because Israel was His in a special sense He chastised them, cf. Hebrews 12:5,6.*God, speaking to Jeremiah, said, “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you,” (Jeremiah 1:5). The meaning here is not that God knew about Jeremiah but that He had a special regard for the prophet before He formed him in his mother’s womb. Jesus also used the word “knew” in the sense of personal, intimate awareness. “On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers’ “ (Matt. 7:22,23). Our Lord cannot be understood here as saying, I knew nothing about you, for it is quite evident that He knew all too much about them – their evil character and evil works; hence, His meaning must be, I never knew you intimately nor personally, I never regarded you as the objects of my favor or love. Paul uses the word in the same way in I Corinthians 8:3, “But if one loves God, one is known by him,” and also II Timothy 2:19, “the Lord knows those who are His.” The Lord knows about all men but He only knows those “who love Him, who are called according to His purpose” (Rom 8:28) – those who are His! ...END QUOTE

I would add that Calvinism is also adding a qualifying notion. That being, Whom He foreknew [from the foundations of the world]. That simply is assumed into the text. If that was what was meant, it would be easy to just say it, as Peter did in 1 Peter 1:20

1 Peter 1:2 He indeed was foreordained [foreknew] before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

(ESV) "He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you"

The same Greek word for "foreordained" in 1 Peter 1:20 and "foreknew" in Romans 8:29. Also see John 17:24.

John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

So foreknown [from the foundations of the world] "Foundations of the world" is assumed by the Calvinist interpretation. It sounds reasonable, right? There is predestination right after that.

Let me offer some context that Calvinism doesn't use because their understanding of Scripture limits that context. In Romans 8:28-28, Paul is speaking of true OT believers. That's the flow of the whole book in context, and the more immediate context is the same. They were foreknown as believers already, and were given to the Son by the Father, so that He would not lose one of them, thus predestined to be what? Conformed to the the image of His Son. These were already appointed to eternal life as true OT believers, and were thus foreknown by God, but would need to make the transition to the Gospel message as believers. These He also called (with the Gospel), His Sheep will hear His voice. Those He called, He also justified [in Christ, Pentecost and beyond] also see Romans 3:25. And those He justified, He glorified.

It's actually fits perfectly. If you think that sounds wrong, consider that Paul tells us who is foreknown in Romans 11:2.

Romans 11:1-5 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, "Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

It's Israel. That's the same point that the five points of Calvinism was making, they just didn't examine that Scripture with the entire context, since most Calvinists believe that there is no transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament. That there is no difference in the way God deals with people from one to the other. That OT believers were saved and already had all the benefits of being in Christ. I disagree with that. Listen to the argument made in that article, it actually supports what I'm saying.

This Gospel that these Jews were hearing was completely different from what they expected and understood. Paul is explaining the Law verses grace. How physical Israel is different from Spiritual Israel. How God chastising the Jews and including the Gentiles was part of His eternal plan. How those Jews who God had chastised could still be a part of that plan of salvation. It's a covenant by faith, not of the Law. Peter makes the same kind of Argument to similar minded Jews of that time who were also ignorant as to what was happening in Acts1-2.

Acts 2:22-23 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know-- Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

To use the same argument as the article, I think its not part of the Text, and therefore not necessary to add [from the foundations of the world] to the meaning of the word foreknew. I understand why that idea was assumed into the term foreknew from the Calvinist framework, but I believe that framework lacks the proper context. As the writer points out, God is speaking of a particular people who He foreloved. That's Israel. And they, the true believers, spiritual Israel, were predestined to take the next step in that transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament and come to faith in Jesus Christ, thus placing them in Christ, [after Pentecost] and as a result, being justified in Him and being conformed to His image.

You are correct that in Scripture "know" sometimes refers to intimacy and can mean the consummation of the marital commitment, after which it might have a "pregnant" meaning.

Thus, in Rom. 8:29 it might indeed mean that God foreknew whom would be saved/have saving faith--which is a NT revelation or "qualifying notion" compatible with MFW and contradicting TULIP.

The NT also revealed that God calls everyone to be saved/justified (John 12:32, 1Tim. 2:3-4, Rom. 3:21-5:1) and be glorified in heaven when they persevere in saving faith, hungering for complete sanctification/righteousness like Christ (Matt. 5:6, 10:22, Phil. 3:12-16, Heb. 10:35-39).

Thanks for sharing that insight/interpretation!

Dave123 · Jun 27, 2026

Aussie52 said:
With all due respect, the word foreknow as used in the NT does not carry the meaning of foreloved. That is just a Calvinist view forced onto Scripture.

I'm not Calvinist, and I disagree with their interpretation of that passage over all. I still believe that foreknew has a pregnant meaning (foreloved), just not from the foundations of the world. Foreknew means foreloved, which seems rather obvious to me.

1 Corinthians 8:3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.

Aren't all those who don't love God known by Him also? Is He not all knowing? Yes, but only those who love Him are known in this way.

Romans 11:2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. (This was posted already, and you liked it. Post #10). God knows about everyone, but He foreknew (foreloved) these people, Israel.

Paul specifically mentions the fristfruits of the Spirit in verse 23, those who first received the Spirit of God. Paul considers himself among those "we". The Holy Spirit was just given, that's the context. These are new convert to the NT, but many of them were true OT believers.

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Foreknew is clearly not before they were born, or from eternity past, like the foundations of the world, because they were foreknown by Him because they loved Him. The golden chain from Paul in that passage, 'foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified'. Keeping in mind that 'foreknew' by Him is the result of 'foreloved' by believers, we have a believers love for God starting that chain, foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified. There's only so many way one can take that. Paul uses the word "foreknew" in this passage to provide absolute assurance to believers. "Whom He foreknew," He predestined. Is everyone predestined called and justified? Nope. Whom He foreknew is a people, a specific people who are predestined and justified.

I believe that Paul is speaking of Israel, OT believers, who were predestined to be NT believers, which is where a person is justified, in Christ, with the indwelling Holy Spirit after the death, resurrection and ascension. New believers, like non believers who believed the Gospel after the Spirit was given to OT believers in Acts, were already in Christ and predestined already.

Paul specifically says those who He foreknew first in that chain. Not those who believed were predestined, called, justified, glorified'. NO! Paul specifically says those who He foreknew, He predestined, called, justified and glorified. Think of the implications of that. Romans was written just after Pentecost. Just like many of those in the book of Hebrews, these were new NT believers who were probably tempted to go back to the Levitical Law and the OT ways because of persecution for their NT faith.

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Eternal life doesn't come from the knowledge of God, but a relationship with him, knowing Him.

Genesis 4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain,...." Adam didn't make babies from having knowledge of His wife.

Dave123 · Jun 27, 2026

EmethAlethia said:
I agree ... so far.

Well, I'm not an Arminian or a Calvinist. I'm a Calviminian. LOL And I'm open to altering my views, but that is where my beliefs are falling right now. I agree, if it starts with predestination the first word, "to know beforehand" makes no sense at all. God knows all things "beforehand".

Adam knew Eve and she conceived. The problem is, what you are suggesting doesn't fit either, but let's continue.

Because God knew all that Jerimiah would be He had special affection for him. But His foreknowledge did not in any way change what Jerimiah became. It's just knowledge of what He would be. But that's the same for everyone saved or lost.

ok. gone to heaven, standing in judgment ... foreknowledge. God never knew them ... what's that have to do with "special affection"?

Ok, but this has nothing at all to do with predestination. Just God foreknew everything. it also doesn't explain that added word in Romans.

What's Joh. 17:24 got to do with anything?

All of Romans 9-11, including the illustrations in chapter 9, is about how God could (Temporarily) set aside the Nation of Israel and work with the Gentiles. That's it. Nothing more and nothing less. The good news is at the end of chapter 11, because God extended us mercy, He is able to extend mercy to Israel and graft them in again.

Think about this:

1.) If we start with the beliefs we know are true, and thus

2.) We select out the data we can use to prove our beliefs are true and also,

3.) We gather all the data we can find to prove all opposing beliefs are false,

and then, since all our beliefs are unquestionably true,

4.) We know all "correct" interpretations of all "valid" data must align with our beliefs, right?

And then we judge who loves truth, and who has the truth, based on their alignment with our core beliefs and selected data and interpretations. Everyone passes their own tests, and all the 10,000 different non-Christian and 45,000 different Christian belief groups have absolutely everything they need to hold fast to what they "want to believe" "as" truth. And what if God gives everyone everything they need ...

What if God really does desire absolutely everyone who ever lived to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth? 1Ti. 2:3-6 You know ... just what it says. what "If" God actually truly sought all men. Rom. 1:18-21 What if it were a "real" seeking and not faked and absolutely every man "Knew" God Rom. 1:21 Yep. same word as in proginosko "foreknowledge". What if God is so sure He got everyone everything they needed that He could state no man has any excuse at all? Rom. 1:20

What if God is so sure He got absolutely every human being absolutely everything they needed to "choose" to come to Him that He lets absolutely everyone who does not come to saving faith judge whether or not He truly was faithful to do these things to the point where they could choose Him? Rom. 3:3-4 What if our sovereign Lord lets us choose to suppress, reject, exchange, ... the truth of God that He builds into every man for the lies they want to believe, and then gives real consequences for real choices? Rom. 1:18-32

What if, Despite God’s desires 1Ti. 2:3-4, very “Few” men “Choose” to “receive a love of the truth so as to be saved” both in Rom. 1:18-32 and 2Th. 2:10-12, and thus very "few" choose the "path" leading to the very narrow gate leading to life ... i.e. saving faith in the truth. Same wording as in 1Ti. 2:3-4 is used in 2Th. 2:13 Thus very few will be sealed “in Him” with the Holy Spirit. 2Th. 2:13, Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-13, Eph. 1:13-14 What "If" God really doesn’t always get everything He desires because He chooses to let every human being choose? Mat. 23:37

While God's 1st "seeking" of "all" men ends when the wrong choice is made in 2Th. 2:10, and He, not only stops "seeking" them, He actually hardens them into the beliefs they love, 2Th. 2:11?

What if there is a "second" "seeking" of God the Father, of men who He "Foreknew" would make the correct choice? What if those who make the correct choice are continuously sought by the Father until He gets them. Joh. 4:23-24, 2Th. 2:10-13, Joh. 6:37, 39, Joh. 10:29, Joh. 17:2, 6-11, 24, Act. 13:48, Php. 1:29, 2Th. 2:13-14, 2Ti. 1:9, 2Th. 1:10 If they received a love of truth, and don't just love what they believe to be truth, they never stop seeking truth, Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-13 (Present tense, ongoing continuous, habitual action that never stops. "If" you stop you don't get the promise in Luk. 11:13) they never stop proving all things over and over again and holding fast to what is being proven good/true, 1Th. 5:21

Does anyone keep seeking for what they know they've found? Asking for what they know they have already received? ... Yet it is those who never stop the process who are guaranteed by God to receive the Holy Spirit eventually. Almost all the people in the 10,000 non-Christian and 45,000 different "Christian" belief groups has stopped seeking. Almost all know they love truth and believe the truth. Almost all use the Methodology listed above.

I don't know how to respond to this. Much of your argument is against what I was critiquing. While I agree with the Author of that article posted that foreknew is speaking of foreloved, I disagree with the rest of his conclusion. Some of your argument was against foreknowledge, but that passage clearly says "whom He foreknew".

John 17:24 Jesus was foreloved from the foundations of the world, is significant. It's easy to say, if that's what was meant in Romans 8:28-30. Again, I'm critiquing White and the Calvinist position (the Article).....And...

John 17:24 is still the OT, as it was before Jesus death on the cross (Hebrews 9:16-17). Jesus asking the Father that all that the Father gave Him, the sheep, would come to Him when called, hear and believe, and be made one with Him (baptism with the Holy Spirit), placing OT believers who became NT believers in Christ (starting at Pentecost), and bringing the Gospel to those true OT believers (More sheep) who had yet to hear the Gospel, to Him. Jesus' prayer that they all be made one is answered with the 'placing into' Jesus with the indwelling Holy Spirit, called the baptism with the Holy Spirit. I believe that this was the same predestination spoken about in Romans 8:28-30. They were foreknown/foreloved (1 Corinthians 8:3) These were OT believers, and OT to NT believers who had yet to receive the Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit, predestined to be conformed to Christlikeness, which begins with the NT indwelling (Galatians 3:2-3), called the baptism with the Holy Spirit. "All that the Father givers Him, His sheep, will come to Him and hear Him and believe = predestined). We see this all throughout Acts. OT believers predestined to follow through and become NT believers, which would be the realization of the promises made to them in the OT. Actual salvation was given at Pentecost and beyond. Actual justification, actual atonement, actual imputed righteousness of God. All as the result of being placed into Christ Jesus after His DRA. The predestination is not one from the foundations of the world, rather these who already loved God in the OT, in various states of belief, were due the rest of what God promised. Predestined from true OT believers to NT believers. they could not be saved without being in Christ after the DRA.

Dave123 · Jun 27, 2026

PaulThomson said:
Scripture never asserts that "There has never been a time when anything… future was not fully known to Him.*

What Does the Bible Say About God Is All-knowing?

Bible verses about God Is All-knowing

www.openbible.info

PaulThomson said:
Act 26:4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
Act 26:5 Which knew (proginOskontes, present active participle - foreknowing) me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Act 26:6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers:

Does proginOskontes here mean the Jews foreknowing Saul from before the foundation of the world? Or the jews fore-loving Saul from before Saul's conversion? or the Jews knowing Saul and his way of life before his conversion?

Why cannot proegnO in Rom. 8:29 simply mean that God knew before their conversion, as in He knew them and their manner of life before their conversion, those who have begun to love Him? That would seem to me to be a simplest and reasonable reading of the text without smuggling theological presuppositions into the text.

IMO, both those who accept God’s call and those who refuse His call are foreknown by God before their being called in the same way as Paul was foreknown by his contemporaries before His conversion.

Acts :26:4-6 My manner of life from my youth, which was spent from the beginning among my own nation at Jerusalem, all the Jews know. They knew me from the first, if they were willing to testify, that according to the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers.

"Knew, meaning they have known him and his strict Pharisaic lifestyle. "Knew" in Acts 26 simply means the Jews were personally acquainted with Paul's past. In this context, foreloved would not apply.

Dave123 · Jun 27, 2026

GWH said:
You are correct that in Scripture "know" sometimes refers to intimacy and can mean the consummation of the marital commitment, after which it might have a "pregnant" meaning.

LOL That was funny.

GWH said:
Thus, in Rom. 8:29 it might indeed mean that God foreknew whom would be saved/have saving faith--which is a NT revelation or "qualifying notion" compatible with MFW and contradicting TULIP.

The NT also revealed that God calls everyone to be saved/justified (John 12:32, 1Tim. 2:3-4, Rom. 3:21-5:1) and be glorified in heaven when they persevere in saving faith, hungering for complete sanctification/righteousness like Christ (Matt. 5:6, 10:22, Phil. 3:12-16, Heb. 10:35-39).

Thanks for sharing that insight/interpretation!

GWH · Jun 27, 2026

Dave123 said:
I'm not Calvinist, and I disagree with their interpretation of that passage over all. I still believe that foreknew has a pregnant meaning (foreloved), just not from the foundations of the world. Foreknew means foreloved, which seems rather obvious to me.

1 Corinthians 8:3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.

Aren't all those who don't love God known by Him also? Is He not all knowing? Yes, but only those who love Him are known in this way.

Romans 11:2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. (This was posted already, and you liked it. Post #10). God knows about everyone, but He foreknew (foreloved) these people, Israel.

Paul specifically mentions the fristfruits of the Spirit in verse 23, those who first received the Spirit of God. Paul considers himself among those "we". The Holy Spirit was just given, that's the context. These are new convert to the NT, but many of them were true OT believers.

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Foreknew is clearly not before they were born, or from eternity past, like the foundations of the world, because they were foreknown by Him because they loved Him. The golden chain from Paul in that passage, 'foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified'. Keeping in mind that 'foreknew' by Him is the result of 'foreloved' by believers, we have a believers love for God starting that chain, foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified. There's only so many way one can take that. Paul uses the word "foreknew" in this passage to provide absolute assurance to believers. "Whom He foreknew," He predestined. Is everyone predestined called and justified? Nope. Whom He foreknew is a people, a specific people who are predestined and justified.

I believe that Paul is speaking of Israel, OT believers, who were predestined to be NT believers, which is where a person is justified, in Christ, with the indwelling Holy Spirit after the death, resurrection and ascension. New believers, like non believers who believed the Gospel after the Spirit was given to OT believers in Acts, were already in Christ and predestined already.

Paul specifically says those who He foreknew first in that chain. Not those who believed were predestined, called, justified, glorified'. NO! Paul specifically says those who He foreknew, He predestined, called, justified and glorified. Think of the implications of that. Romans was written just after Pentecost. Just like many of those in the book of Hebrews, these were new NT believers who were probably tempted to go back to the Levitical Law and the OT ways because of persecution for their NT faith.

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Eternal life doesn't come from the knowledge of God, but a relationship with him, knowing Him.

Genesis 4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain,...." Adam didn't make babies from having knowledge of His wife.

Romans reveals that Paul spoke of all humanity when explaining how to be saved.
Both Jews and Gentiles may be saved via accepting Jesus as Messiah and Lord.

34. In Romans 9:24-33 and 10:1-4 Paul notes that God elected to choose Gentiles with saving faith instead of Israelites who sought salvation by works and stumbled over the Gospel of Christ, even though “everyone who believes” receives righteousness or s/e.

35. Romans 10:9 states God’s requirement for s/e as “confess Jesus as the resurrected Lord”, v.10 clarifies that the condition of faith (#31) precedes the work of confession, and vs.11-13 reiterate that all sinners who call on the name of the Lord will be s/e.

36. Romans 10:18 cites Psalm 19:4, which hints that God’s s/e has been possible for everyone in the world. This implication may also be seen in Gal. 3:8, Col. 1:23 and Tit. 2:11 as well as Rom. 1:20.

37. Romans 11:5-7a refers to an elect “remnant chosen by grace”, which indicates that sinners may cooperate with God’s calling to be s/e “or not” (#35).

38. Romans 11:7b-8 needs to be understood in the context of pharaoh (#32), whose heart God allowed to be hardened. “God gave them a spirit of stupor” echoes what Paul said in Romans 1:24 & 28, that God gave fools over to perversion and a depraved mind.

39. Romans 11:11-15 speaks of the blindness of Israel as the reason s/e was offered to Gentiles,

and Paul hopes Israel will become envious (v.11 & 14) and prompted to accept Christ.

40. Romans 11:17-24 describes the situation of Israel as comparable to grafting branches onto a tree, and the condition of faith (#37) is quite explicit (v.20-23).

41. Romans 11:25-32 explains the s/e of corporate Israel as a partial and temporary hardening until all in corporate Gentiles “may” be s/e, at which time all Israel “may” be s/e.

Dave123 · Jun 27, 2026

GWH said:
Romans reveals that Paul spoke of all humanity when explaining how to be saved.
Both Jews and Gentiles may be saved via accepting Jesus as Messiah and Lord.

34. In Romans 9:24-33 and 10:1-4 Paul notes that God elected to choose Gentiles with saving faith instead of Israelites who sought salvation by works and stumbled over the Gospel of Christ, even though “everyone who believes” receives righteousness or s/e.

35. Romans 10:9 states God’s requirement for s/e as “confess Jesus as the resurrected Lord”, v.10 clarifies that the condition of faith (#31) precedes the work of confession, and vs.11-13 reiterate that all sinners who call on the name of the Lord will be s/e.

36. Romans 10:18 cites Psalm 19:4, which hints that God’s s/e has been possible for everyone in the world. This implication may also be seen in Gal. 3:8, Col. 1:23 and Tit. 2:11 as well as Rom. 1:20.

37. Romans 11:5-7a refers to an elect “remnant chosen by grace”, which indicates that sinners may cooperate with God’s calling to be s/e “or not” (#35).

38. Romans 11:7b-8 needs to be understood in the context of pharaoh (#32), whose heart God allowed to be hardened. “God gave them a spirit of stupor” echoes what Paul said in Romans 1:24 & 28, that God gave fools over to perversion and a depraved mind.

39. Romans 11:11-15 speaks of the blindness of Israel as the reason s/e was offered to Gentiles,

and Paul hopes Israel will become envious (v.11 & 14) and prompted to accept Christ.

40. Romans 11:17-24 describes the situation of Israel as comparable to grafting branches onto a tree, and the condition of faith (#37) is quite explicit (v.20-23).

41. Romans 11:25-32 explains the s/e of corporate Israel as a partial and temporary hardening until all in corporate Gentiles “may” be s/e, at which time all Israel “may” be s/e.

And when they do come to faith, they will be known by God also. Remember, this was a unique point in time at Pentecost, the birth of the Church. Seeing that context helps one to understand what I'm saying. There is only one time in history that that a person of genuine OT faith (promises) could be predestined to a NT faith (realization of the Promises).

Dave

"The Meaning of Foreknew in Romans 8:29"

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