BAPTISM IS A WORK

Beckworth said:

Yes, I agree with denominational doctrine—baptism IS a work.
Baptism is a work of FAITH - Acts 8:36-37
The eunuch said, “ Here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Phillip answered, “If you BELIEVE, you may..”
Jesus said, “He that BELIEVES and is BAPTIZED shall be SAVED.”

Baptism is a work of God. Colossians 2:12.
“Buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the WORKING OF GOD…”

But baptism is NOT a work of the law that Paul talks about in Ephesians 2:8-9.

Click to expand...

Yes, water baptism replaced physical circumcision as the preferred rite for portraying spiritual circumcision/spiritual baptism.

Beckworth said:

Yes, I agree with denominational doctrine—baptism IS a work.
Baptism is a work of FAITH - Acts 8:36-37
The eunuch said, “ Here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Phillip answered, “If you BELIEVE, you may..”
Jesus said, “He that BELIEVES and is BAPTIZED shall be SAVED.”

Baptism is a work of God. Colossians 2:12.
“Buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the WORKING OF GOD…”

But baptism is NOT a work of the law that Paul talks about in Ephesians 2:8-9.

Click to expand...

Again, there are many verses without water baptism about receiving salvation, many in the book of John plus other books.

So the negative of the verse.. don't get baptized in water and you won't be saved, is not correct.

The positive statement..believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, gives salvation, without water baptism.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptized.. yes they are saved...but not because of the baptism..but the belief. Belief is the condition.

Luke 18:13 KJV
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Being a Baptist, I’ve always found the Lutheran view of baptism difficult

Martin Luther’s Comments on Mark 16 :
“But there is still one more thing here, that Christ says: V.16. “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” Here you might say: I perceive, then, that baptism is also required. To be sure it is, but baptism is not a work that we do. It is to be coupled, however, with faith, because God would not have faith to be hidden in the heart, but would have it burst forth and manifest itself to the world. For this reason, he ordained such outward signs, by means of which everyone may show and confess his faith, to the end that we may come to the holy cross. For, if faith were to be kept as a secret, hidden in the heart, we would be pretty sure of not having to bear the cross or to follow Christ; if the world knew not that we believed, we would not be persecuted.

18 In the second place, we would never be the means of leading a soul to repentance and faith if we did not openly confess the Gospel and observe an external sign whereby men might know who and where the Christians are. Now, God has so ordained that our faith should be manifested before the heathen; hence, whosoever is a Christian and has received baptism, is in danger of his life among the heathen and unbelievers. It is necessary that we receive baptism if we are Christians; or, if that is beyond our reach, that we say, at least: I sincerely desire to be baptized.

19 Moreover, the sign of baptism is given us also to show that God himself will help us, and that we should be certain of his grace, and that everyone be able to say: Hereunto did God give me a sign, that I should be assured of my salvation, which he has promised me in the Gospel. For he has given us the Word, that is, the written document; and beside the Word, baptism, that is the seal. So faith, which apprehends the Word, may be strengthened by the sign and seal.

20 But you see no work of man in this transaction; for baptism is not my work but God's. He that baptized me stands in God's stead and does not the work of a man, but rather it is God's hand and work. God is the real worker. Therefore, I may and should say: God, my Lord, baptized me himself, by the hand of a man. Of this I may boast, and on this I am to rely, and say: God, who will not and cannot lie, has given me this sign to assure me that he is gracious to me and willing to save me and has through his Son given me all that he has. Thus, on our side there is nothing but faith alone; and on his side, only the Word and the sign. But we have dwelt upon this matter often enough and there is no need of enlarging upon it now.”

One way I’ve seen the Lutherans approach to baptism
Lutherans believe baptism is monergistic (God alone acts), even though it involves physical ritual. This is why they can affirm baptismal regeneration without compromising justification by faith alone.
In other words:

• Baptists fear baptismal regeneration because they think it makes baptism a human work.
• Lutherans embrace baptismal regeneration because they think it proves baptism is God’s work.

GWH said:

Yes, water baptism replaced physical circumcision as the preferred rite for portraying spiritual circumcision/spiritual baptism.

Click to expand...

"the preferred rite for portraying"???


Was God about to kill Moses because of a lack of portrayal?

"Preferred"?

So the Jews were allowed to choose their personal portrayal?

Your comment shows a certain blindness to God's word that is purpose driven.

Beckworth said:

Yes, I agree with denominational doctrine—baptism IS a work.
Baptism is a work of FAITH - Acts 8:36-37
The eunuch said, “ Here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Phillip answered, “If you BELIEVE, you may..”
Jesus said, “He that BELIEVES and is BAPTIZED shall be SAVED.”

Baptism is a work of God. Colossians 2:12.
“Buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the WORKING OF GOD…”

But baptism is NOT a work of the law that Paul talks about in Ephesians 2:8-9.

Click to expand...

We are saved by faith and not by works when we first confess Christ.

Then when we receive the Spirit we have to have works of love or our faith is no good.

Which charity, love in action, works, is greater than faith.

And faith works by love.

And love is the fulfilling of the law.

Which John said do not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed, works, and in truth.

James said Abraham was justified by works.

For a person is justified by works and not faith alone.

Paul said without charity he is nothing.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father.

Even faith is a work, repentance is a work, for all we do is a work.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

Water baptism is to identify with Jesus' death.

We are to identify with the man Christ Jesus who died was buried and resurrected by repenting dying out to sin, being water baptized, and hating sin allowing the Spirt to lead us.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

You can't cut out the middle man saying it is not essential.

Eph_4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

1Co_12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The "one baptism" for those saved by the gospel of grace is the baptism (immersion) by the Holy Spirit of us into the body of Christ.

Water baptism might be seen as more applicable to those saved by the kingdom gospel for Israel.

Beckworth said:

Can one just believe and not repent and be saved? Is repentance not necessary to salvation? Do the verses on faith, that do not mention repentance, then exclude repentance as necessary for salvation?

If all of the verses on faith, in John and other books, that do not mention baptism, if those verses prove that baptism is not necessary for salvation, then, all of those verses in John and other books that do not mention repentance prove that repentance is not necessary for salvation. If not, why not? I’ve never met a believer in “faith only” that believes repentance is not necessary to be saved. Perhaps you are one? But you must be consistent. If you are going to argue that baptism is not necessary just because the Holy Spirit did not include it in every verse on faith, then that would prove that a person does not need to repent, also; because repentance is not in those verses either.

We know we must repent because there are other verses in the Bible that say so. One verse does not exclude another divinely inspired verse. We just put them together and conclude that faith AND repentance are both necessary to be saved. The same is true with baptism. There are many scriptures that teach baptism is necessary to salvation—Jesus puts it before salvation and makes it equal to faith in Mark 16:16; and the apostle Peter specifically says it “saves us.” 1 Peter 3:21. So, we must put it all together as Psalm 119:160 says… the SUM of God’s word is truth.

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Saving faith is synonymous with repentance and with Spirit baptism, but not with the rite of water baptism.

TrustandObey said:

"the preferred rite for portraying"???


Was God about to kill Moses because of a lack of portrayal?

"Preferred"?

So the Jews were allowed to choose their personal portrayal?

Your comment shows a certain blindness to God's word that is purpose driven.

Click to expand...

No, your comment shows ignorance of Romans 3:21-5:1. Please read and ponder the passage before we continue the discussion. Thanks.

tablet123 said:

We are saved by faith and not by works when we first confess Christ.

Then when we receive the Spirit we have to have works of love or our faith is no good.

Which charity, love in action, works, is greater than faith.

And faith works by love.

And love is the fulfilling of the law.

Which John said do not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed, works, and in truth.

James said Abraham was justified by works.

For a person is justified by works and not faith alone.

Paul said without charity he is nothing.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father.

Even faith is a work, repentance is a work, for all we do is a work.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

Water baptism is to identify with Jesus' death.

We are to identify with the man Christ Jesus who died was buried and resurrected by repenting dying out to sin, being water baptized, and hating sin allowing the Spirt to lead us.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

You can't cut out the middle man saying it is not essential.

Click to expand...

Those who receive the Holy Spirit will have loving behavior (Rom. 5:5).

Jon777 said:

Being a Baptist, I’ve always found the Lutheran view of baptism difficult

Martin Luther’s Comments on Mark 16 :
“But there is still one more thing here, that Christ says: V.16. “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” Here you might say: I perceive, then, that baptism is also required. To be sure it is, but baptism is not a work that we do. It is to be coupled, however, with faith, because God would not have faith to be hidden in the heart, but would have it burst forth and manifest itself to the world. For this reason, he ordained such outward signs, by means of which everyone may show and confess his faith, to the end that we may come to the holy cross. For, if faith were to be kept as a secret, hidden in the heart, we would be pretty sure of not having to bear the cross or to follow Christ; if the world knew not that we believed, we would not be persecuted.

18 In the second place, we would never be the means of leading a soul to repentance and faith if we did not openly confess the Gospel and observe an external sign whereby men might know who and where the Christians are. Now, God has so ordained that our faith should be manifested before the heathen; hence, whosoever is a Christian and has received baptism, is in danger of his life among the heathen and unbelievers. It is necessary that we receive baptism if we are Christians; or, if that is beyond our reach, that we say, at least: I sincerely desire to be baptized.

19 Moreover, the sign of baptism is given us also to show that God himself will help us, and that we should be certain of his grace, and that everyone be able to say: Hereunto did God give me a sign, that I should be assured of my salvation, which he has promised me in the Gospel. For he has given us the Word, that is, the written document; and beside the Word, baptism, that is the seal. So faith, which apprehends the Word, may be strengthened by the sign and seal.

20 But you see no work of man in this transaction; for baptism is not my work but God's. He that baptized me stands in God's stead and does not the work of a man, but rather it is God's hand and work. God is the real worker. Therefore, I may and should say: God, my Lord, baptized me himself, by the hand of a man. Of this I may boast, and on this I am to rely, and say: God, who will not and cannot lie, has given me this sign to assure me that he is gracious to me and willing to save me and has through his Son given me all that he has. Thus, on our side there is nothing but faith alone; and on his side, only the Word and the sign. But we have dwelt upon this matter often enough and there is no need of enlarging upon it now.”

One way I’ve seen the Lutherans approach to baptism
Lutherans believe baptism is monergistic (God alone acts), even though it involves physical ritual. This is why they can affirm baptismal regeneration without compromising justification by faith alone.
In other words:

• Baptists fear baptismal regeneration because they think it makes baptism a human work.
• Lutherans embrace baptismal regeneration because they think it proves baptism is God’s work.

Click to expand...

John L. Dagg wrote the first systematic theology by a Baptist in America (1857)

A small portion of his section on baptism is interesting by the importance he places on it.

“The design of baptism proves its importance. The whole tenor of the gospel forbids the supposition that there is any saving efficacy in the mere rite: but it is the appointed ceremony of profession; and profession, we have seen, is, in general, necessary to salvation. As the divine goodness may pardon disciples who fear to make public profession, so it may, and we rejoice to believe that it does pardon those, who do not understand the obligation to make ceremonial profession, or mistake the manner of doing it. But God ought to be obeyed; and his way is the right way, and the best way. Paul argues from the baptism of believers, their obligation to walk in newness of life. The ceremony implies a vow of obedience, a public and solemn consecration to the service of God. The believing subject can feel the force of the obligation acknowledged in the act, and Paul appeals to this sense of obligation: “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death. Though it is an outward ceremony, it is important, not only as an act of obedience, but as expressing a believer’s separation from the world, and consecration to God, in a manner intelligible and significant, and well adapted to impress his own mind and the minds of beholders.

The faith which is professed in baptism, is faith in Christ. We confess with our mouths the Lord Jesus Christ, and believe in our hearts that God has raised him from the dead. If the doctrine of the resurrection be taken from the Gospel, preaching is vain, and faith is vain. So, if the symbol of the resurrection be taken from baptism, its chief significancy is gone, and its adaptedness for the profession of faith in Christ, is lost. Hence appears the importance of adhering closely to the Saviour’s command, ‘immersing them.’

The obligation to make a baptismal profession of faith, binds every disciple of Christ. Some have converted the Eucharist into a ceremony of profession; but this is not the law of Christ. Baptism was designed, and ought to be used, for this purpose. If infant baptism be obligatory, the duty is parental; and if it be a ceremony in which children are dedicated by their parents to the Lord, it is a different institution from that in which faith is professed. He who has been baptized in infancy, is not thereby released from the obligation to make a baptismal profession of faith in Christ. If it be granted, that his parents did their duty in dedicating him to God, he has, nevertheless, a personal duty to perform. The parental act of which he has no consciousness, cannot be to him the answer of a good conscience toward God. Had it left an abiding mark in the flesh, an argument of some plausibility might be urged against the repetition of the ceremony. But the supposed seal of God’s covenant is neither in his flesh, nor in his memory, and his conscience has no Scriptural release from the personal obligation of a baptismal profession.”
Manual of Church Order - Ch. 1 - Founders Ministries

Beckworth said:

Can one just believe and not repent and be saved? Is repentance not necessary to salvation? Do the verses on faith, that do not mention repentance, then exclude repentance as necessary for salvation?

If all of the verses on faith, in John and other books, that do not mention baptism, if those verses prove that baptism is not necessary for salvation, then, all of those verses in John and other books that do not mention repentance prove that repentance is not necessary for salvation. If not, why not? I’ve never met a believer in “faith only” that believes repentance is not necessary to be saved. Perhaps you are one? But you must be consistent. If you are going to argue that baptism is not necessary just because the Holy Spirit did not include it in every verse on faith, then that would prove that a person does not need to repent, also; because repentance is not in those verses either.

We know we must repent because there are other verses in the Bible that say so. One verse does not exclude another divinely inspired verse. We just put them together and conclude that faith AND repentance are both necessary to be saved. The same is true with baptism. There are many scriptures that teach baptism is necessary to salvation—Jesus puts it before salvation and makes it equal to faith in Mark 16:16; and the apostle Peter specifically says it “saves us.” 1 Peter 3:21. So, we must put it all together as Psalm 119:160 says… the SUM of God’s word is truth.

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Repent is a change of mind, heart..at believing on Jesus. It's not a work. Not self reformation.

Beckworth said:

Can one just believe and not repent and be saved? Is repentance not necessary to salvation? Do the verses on faith, that do not mention repentance, then exclude repentance as necessary for salvation?

If all of the verses on faith, in John and other books, that do not mention baptism, if those verses prove that baptism is not necessary for salvation, then, all of those verses in John and other books that do not mention repentance prove that repentance is not necessary for salvation. If not, why not? I’ve never met a believer in “faith only” that believes repentance is not necessary to be saved. Perhaps you are one? But you must be consistent. If you are going to argue that baptism is not necessary just because the Holy Spirit did not include it in every verse on faith, then that would prove that a person does not need to repent, also; because repentance is not in those verses either.

We know we must repent because there are other verses in the Bible that say so. One verse does not exclude another divinely inspired verse. We just put them together and conclude that faith AND repentance are both necessary to be saved. The same is true with baptism. There are many scriptures that teach baptism is necessary to salvation—Jesus puts it before salvation and makes it equal to faith in Mark 16:16; and the apostle Peter specifically says it “saves us.” 1 Peter 3:21. So, we must put it all together as Psalm 119:160 says… the SUM of God’s word is truth.

Click to expand...

Metanoia is translated as repentance, it means to have a change of mind or think differently. Someone who comes to believe has done that.

Beckworth said:

Can one just believe and not repent and be saved? Is repentance not necessary to salvation? Do the verses on faith, that do not mention repentance, then exclude repentance as necessary for salvation?

If all of the verses on faith, in John and other books, that do not mention baptism, if those verses prove that baptism is not necessary for salvation, then, all of those verses in John and other books that do not mention repentance prove that repentance is not necessary for salvation. If not, why not? I’ve never met a believer in “faith only” that believes repentance is not necessary to be saved. Perhaps you are one? But you must be consistent. If you are going to argue that baptism is not necessary just because the Holy Spirit did not include it in every verse on faith, then that would prove that a person does not need to repent, also; because repentance is not in those verses either.

We know we must repent because there are other verses in the Bible that say so. One verse does not exclude another divinely inspired verse. We just put them together and conclude that faith AND repentance are both necessary to be saved. The same is true with baptism. There are many scriptures that teach baptism is necessary to salvation—Jesus puts it before salvation and makes it equal to faith in Mark 16:16; and the apostle Peter specifically says it “saves us.” 1 Peter 3:21. So, we must put it all together as Psalm 119:160 says… the SUM of God’s word is truth.

Click to expand...

Yes indeed. Also if we were to take just one verse you wouldn't even need faith, just be meek and you will inherit the earth.

GWH said:

No, your comment shows ignorance of Romans 3:21-5:1. Please read and ponder the passage before we continue the discussion. Thanks.

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Your comment on post #2 shows your ignorance of circumcision.

Regardless of what you think Romans 3:21-5:1 says your comment was still ignorant.

Labeling me ignorant for calling out your absurd comment on post #2 is childish.

Just address what you wrote on post #2.

TrustandObey said:

Your comment on post #2 shows your ignorance of circumcision.

Regardless of what you think Romans 3:21-5:1 says your comment was still ignorant.

Labeling me ignorant for calling out your absurd comment on post #2 is childish.

ust address what you wrote on post #2.

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You continue to ignore Rom. 3:21-5:1, but I will go ahead and address what I wrote in #2, which was "WB replaced PC as the preferred rite for portraying SC/SB." This is indicated by connecting Acts 15:5-11 with Acts 16:13-15 & 31-33 and with 1Cor. 1:14-17, 12:13, & Eph. 4:5.