Was Mary Sinless?

bytheblood said:

Faith in the promise. When Jesus came and preached to them there was no further need of faith because Faith showed up, then they received " the end of their faith, the salvation of their souls".

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1 Peter 1:6-9 teaches about the salvation of the soul.

It's when God places a believer into trials and tribulations to test him to see how well he lives by faith.
To discover and see if what he believers is true doctrine. The end result found if his faith is real, is to enter into
a peace and happiness that comes from God. False doctrines will fail him. It is one reason some abuse the notion
of having to endure to the end to be saved. For without joy and inner happiness from God they must gut it out in this lifetime.

False doctrine cannot and will not produce genuine faith.
It is only pseudo faith which must be compensated for by means of being closed-minded and dogmatic when facing the trials.

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Genez said:

God exceeds everlasting life.
For everlasting life had a beginning.

God had no beginning.
God is situated outside of time.

We need to better understand this truth.
Many never give it a thought.

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What makes what you are saying the truth? You give no biblical explanation for you beliefs, while I have given you Bible to back up what I'm saying. Where does it say, in scripture, that everlasting life has a beginning. I've shown you where JESUS said he gives all that the Father has given Him ETERNAL LIFE. Are You disputing what Jesus said? Is He wrong too? Who should I believe? The One who suffered and paid for my sins? Or you who...who..who..has an opinion? Give me some advice Genez, I'm in a quandary................not.

bytheblood said:

What makes what you are saying the truth? You give no biblical explanation for you beliefs, while I have given you Bible to back up what I'm saying. Where does it say, in scripture, that everlasting life has a beginning. I've shown you where JESUS said he gives all that the Father has given Him ETERNAL LIFE. Are You disputing what Jesus said? Is He wrong too? Who should I believe? The One who suffered and paid for my sins? Or you who...who..who..has an opinion? Give me some advice Genez, I'm in a quandary................not.

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Did God have a beginning? No? Yes?
Did you have a beginning? Yes.

The lives are not quite the same.

Genez said:

1 Peter 1:6-9 teaches about the salvation of the soul.

It's when God places a believer into trials and tribulations to test him to see how well he lives by faith.
To discover and see if what he believers is true doctrine. The end result found if his faith is real, is to enter into
a peace and happiness that comes from God. False doctrines will fail him. It is one reason some abuse the notion
of having to endure to the end to be saved. For without joy and inner happiness from God they must gut it out in this lifetime.

​

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved ​

by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold ​

that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the ​

revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, ​

yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith​

—the salvation of your souls.​

​

False doctrine cannot and will not produce genuine faith.
It is only pseudo faith which must be compensated for by means of being closed-minded and dogmatic when facing the trials.

................

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This perfectly describes what those in the " hall of faith " in Heb. 11 went through " That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried by fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory AT THE APPEARING OF JESUS CHRIST:" 1 Peter 1:7. Jesus appeared, they received the end of their faith, the salvation of their souls.

Genez said:

Did God have a beginning? No? Yes?
Did you have a beginning? Yes.

The lives are not quite the same.

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Jesus gave me ETERNAL LIFE (John 17:2). Didn't He give it to you? Where are your scriptures to back up what you profess? Do you have eternal life or not?

bytheblood said:

This perfectly describes what those in the " hall of faith " in Heb. 11 went through " That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried by fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory AT THE APPEARING OF JESUS CHRIST:" 1 Peter 1:7. Jesus appeared, they received the end of their faith, the salvation of their souls.

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The trials and testings are done to prove the genuineness of what the believer believes. i.e., his faith.

Not everybody passes the test to enter into the salvation of their soul in time.
For, in spite of what some wish to deny, there are also miserable believers in this world.
Their doctrine that they preferred (which faith is based upon) is not true doctrine.


Many, for that very reason found in 2 Timothy 4:3, never achieve to know what the salvation of the soul really is.

grace and peace ........

bytheblood said:

Jesus gave me ETERNAL LIFE (John 17:2).

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Then you are God.

Genez said:

Then you are God.

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Sinners who are given eternal life by Jesus Christ don't become God. Jesus said:

(Joh 10:27 NKJV) My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
(Joh 10:28) And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
(Joh 10:29) My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

He doesn't say (in John 10 or anywhere else) that His sheep become God. In John 17 He says:

(Joh 17:1) Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
(Joh 17:2) as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
(Joh 17:3) And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Yes, eternal life involves knowing God, and knowing Jesus Christ, but not being God.

Churchgoer said:

Interesting. Sin can only pass through male?

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Maybe

bytheblood said:

They all believed in the PROMISE of salvation before the cross, while we have been given a "down payment" of salvation by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, after the cross. The major point , IMHO, being overlooked here is the shed blood of Jesus, sprinkled on the mercy seat to pay for ALL sins before and after the cross, without which we are all men(and women) most miserable and without hope in this world.

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We believe "in the PROMISE of salvation" just as they did. While the "down payment" in our day and time indwells the born again believer, the believers under the NC believe the same Promiser as believers under the OC.

We believe in the same Redeemer, we believe we shall see our Redeemer face to face, and we shall be like Him ... just as believers under the OC believed (Job 19:25-27; Psalm 17:15; Psalm 49:15).

And I understand your point concerning the Lord Jesus Christ ... His words as He hung on the cross "it is finished". I do believe, though, that OC believers were aware of and they attained salvation even though they looked forward to a time and they "received not the promise" (Hebrews 11:39) ... and, yes, God has provided "some better thing for us" (Hebrews 11:40).

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bytheblood said:

Genez said:

In John 17:2, the word "eternal" is translated from the Greek word aiōnios which, according to Thayer's means:


#1 refers to God
#3 refers to believers

I generally use the word "eternal" to refer to God and "everlasting life" to refer to believers.

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DavidLamb said:

Sinners who are given eternal life by Jesus Christ don't become God. Jesus said:

(Joh 10:27 NKJV) My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
(Joh 10:28) And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
(Joh 10:29) My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

He doesn't say (in John 10 or anywhere else) that His sheep become God. In John 17 He says:

(Joh 17:1) Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
(Joh 17:2) as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
(Joh 17:3) And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Yes, eternal life involves knowing God, and knowing Jesus Christ, but not being God.

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We have eternal life IN God.
We now have everlasting life in our own experience as a child of God.

In the future God, being outside of time (eternal) if He wishes can cause us to time travel to different times in history to witness to events as they actually took place. God is not limited by time. We are. In God, we will have access to what His Life sees as He shares from his omniscience with us.

That is why and how we can gain more eternal life by being a believer who pleases God in doing His will now.
Not everyone will receive the same eternal rewards. We all have eternal life by default when living with God forever.
He is eternal life!

Not all who have been given eternal life (believers) will inherit from God sharing in His eternal life with them. (rewards)
That sharing in His eternal life will be rewards from God to the faithful believer to grow in grace and knowledge.

Here it is...


Those who based their walk upon false doctrines will have wood, hay, or straw. Their works will be burned up.
They will not have access to eternal rewards we could have in God. They are saved forever for having initially believed in Christ.
All their works will be burned up. Yet, will be saved as a man is saved running from a burning house.

I pray for those who have ears to hear they will understand what I just said.

In Christ, GeneZ

Churchgoer said:

Interesting. Sin can only pass through male?

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Adam knew he was sinning. Eve was deceived.
God decreed that the sin nature would be passed down through the male in reproduction.

Keep in mind. Eve was the first sinner. But? Adam was the cause of all of us having a sin nature.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,
and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— Romans 5:12

Way back in Genesis 3:15, God indicated that the female ovum is not the cause for the sin nature in man.
And, would be how the Messiah would come into the world to crush Satan's head.




Between your seed and her Seed?
God was telling the Devil that man will now be manifested in his fallen image. (his seed).
And the woman's ovum (seed) is immune, and will be used to bring the Messiah into the world
to crush his head.

With Jesus birth there was to be no human father to transfer the sin nature.
That was the reason for having the 'virgin birth'.
For the Holy Spirit provided perfect male genetic material as to fertilize the ovum of Mary.

So be it....

bytheblood said:

"And THIS IS LIFE ETERNAL, that they may KNOW THEE the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou has sent." John 17:3. Eternal life is having an intimate knowledge (through relationship) of God and Jesus Christ His Son, for " I am the Way, the Truth and the LIFE: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me." John 14:6. Incidentally, everlasting life and eternal life mean exactly the same thing. Look it up yourself, Greek 165-166, Strong's.

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John 17 verses 2-3 ~ You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent.

Genez said:

The trials and testings are done to prove the genuineness of what the believer believes. i.e., his faith.

Not everybody passes the test to enter into the salvation of their soul in time.
For, in spite of what some wish to deny, there are also miserable believers in this world.
Their doctrine that they preferred (which faith is based upon) is not true doctrine.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great ​

number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Tim 4:3​

Many, for that very reason found in 2 Timothy 4:3, never achieve to know what the salvation of the soul really is.

grace and peace ........

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My faith is in Jesus Christ, alone. " I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I live in the flesh I LIVE BY THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." Gal 2:20. So it's by HIS faith that I live. THAT'S good doctrine.

reneweddaybyday said:

We believe "in the PROMISE of salvation" just as they did. While the "down payment" in our day and time indwells the born again believer, the believers under the NC believe the same Promiser as believers under the OC.

We believe in the same Redeemer, we believe we shall see our Redeemer face to face, and we shall be like Him ... just as believers under the OC believed (Job 19:25-27; Psalm 17:15; Psalm 49:15).

And I understand your point concerning the Lord Jesus Christ ... His words as He hung on the cross "it is finished". I do believe, though, that OC believers were aware of and they attained salvation even though they looked forward to a time and they "received not the promise" (Hebrews 11:39) ... and, yes, God has provided "some better thing for us" (Hebrews 11:40).

.

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Although I understand and agree with most of you post, when you quoted Heb. 11:39 " they received NOT the promise", kind of proved my point. The OT believers(righteous) of Heb. 11 have now seen Jesus face to face, when He preached to the spirits in prison, THEN they received the end of their faith, the SALVATION of their souls, but not beforehand. Just as we(righteous) will when we see Him. It's a faith walk.

Genez said:

Adam knew he was sinning. Eve was deceived.
God decreed that the sin nature would be passed down through the male in reproduction.

Keep in mind. Eve was the first sinner. But? Adam was the cause of all of us having a sin nature.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,
and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— Romans 5:12

Way back in Genesis 3:15, God indicated that the female ovum is not the cause for the sin nature in man.
And, would be how the Messiah would come into the world to crush Satan's head.

And I will put enmity​

Between you and the woman,​

And between your seed and her Seed;​

He shall bruise your head,​

And you shall bruise His heel.”​

Between your seed and her Seed?
God was telling the Devil that man will now be manifested in his fallen image. (his seed).
And the woman's ovum (seed) is immune, and will be used to bring the Messiah into the world
to crush his head.

With Jesus birth there was to be no human father to transfer the sin nature.
That was the reason for having the 'virgin birth'.
For the Holy Spirit provided perfect male genetic material as to fertilize the ovum of Mary.

So be it....

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Guess what Genez, I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY! And some say there are no longer any miracles )

bytheblood said:

Guess what Genez, I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY! And some say there are no longer any miracles )

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Either you misunderstood what he said or you have changed your mind as you said Christ's body had nothing to do with either Adam or Eve back in post#1745.

bytheblood said:

Yeah, that's my question, Eve was actually the first human to sin but the responsibility fell on Adam because he was the one whom God spoke directly to, not his help meet. Jesus' blood was completely unique, one of one, neither Adam NOR Eve had anything to do with it's composition or it would have been tainted by sin, from either or both.

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bytheblood said:

Although I understand and agree with most of you post, when you quoted Heb. 11:39 " they received NOT the promise", kind of proved my point.

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Hebrews 11:39 does not indicate those who lived under the OC did not attain salvation. The "promise" they did not "receive" was Messiah ... they did not live to see His coming.

When Joseph and Mary brought Jesus to the temple when He was 8 days old:

Luke 2:25-32

25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.


Simeon "came by the Spirit" ... he was led into the temple by the Holy Spirit.

He saw the Salvation of God

bytheblood said:

The OT believers(righteous) of Heb. 11 have now seen Jesus face to face, when He preached to the spirits in prison, THEN they received the end of their faith, the SALVATION of their souls, but not beforehand. Just as we(righteous) will when we see Him. It's a faith walk.

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yes ... a faith walk ...

Romans 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

from faith to faith ... not from works to faith ... or faith to works ... the walk of faith is from faith to faith ... ongoing faith as we walk in faith in He Who has promised to keep all His promises.

Can you imagine being threatened to be thrown into a fiery furnace? ... or a den of lions? ... would you stand strong in faith like Shadrach, Meschach, and Abednego did? ... or as Daniel did? How about Abraham when he offered up his son, Isaac? ... would you walk away from untold riches like Moses did? ... I like to think I would stand strong in faith like the believers we read about in Hebrews 11.

And they stood strong having not received the promise, while we, who have received the promise (the "some better thing" – Hebrews 11:40), whine if someone who we know has received the promise (i.e. is born again) does not agree 100% with with us ... just look at the behavior going on over in the "Calvinism is Gospel !" thread ... smh ...

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I sometimes wonder when reading all these comments, who has investigated what it meant to be sinless in the eyes of a 1st century Jew? Was there understanding the same as our 21st century one, or are we missing something.