Considering that many first century Jews rejected their Messiah, I'm not so sure their understanding is what should be pursued.
Was Mary Sinless?
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Considering that many first century Jews rejected their Messiah, I'm not so sure their understanding is what should be pursued.
Quite plausibly far fewer rejected than you realize. Or are you unaware of the obscure evidence that Joseph Caiaphas and Antipas were among the believers. Quite likely considering what appears to have been a 1st century Messianic prophesy that is conveniently left out of the NT and conveniently not easily visible in the Masoretic Text, which is, by the way, Christianity's official OT. I wonder why, when the Masoretic Text has the fewest connections to the NT of any known OT text that it was chosen as the official one.Considering that many first century Jews rejected their Messiah, I'm not so sure their understanding is what should be pursued.
and the others, with more connections, were supplanted, unless of course, these other potential OT texts said something that the Church did not want to admit.
If the promise they did not receive, Jesus Christ, is salvation, and He is, then they didn't receive salvation.Hebrews 11:39 does not indicate those who lived under the OC did not attain salvation. The "promise" they did not "receive" was Messiah ... they did not live to see His coming.
When Joseph and Mary brought Jesus to the temple when He was 8 days old:
Luke 2:25-32
25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Simeon "came by the Spirit" ... he was led into the temple by the Holy Spirit.
He saw the Salvation of God
yes ... a faith walk ...
Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
from faith to faith ... not from works to faith ... or faith to works ... the walk of faith is from faith to faith ... ongoing faith as we walk in faith in He Who has promised to keep all His promises.
Can you imagine being threatened to be thrown into a fiery furnace? ... or a den of lions? ... would you stand strong in faith like Shadrach, Meschach, and Abednego did? ... or as Daniel did? How about Abraham when he offered up his son, Isaac? ... would you walk away from untold riches like Moses did? ... I like to think I would stand strong in faith like the believers we read about in Hebrews 11.
And they stood strong having not received the promise, while we, who have received the promise (the "some better thing" – Hebrews 11:40), whine if someone who we know has received the promise (i.e. is born again) does not agree 100% with with us ... just look at the behavior going on over in the "Calvinism is Gospel !" thread ... smh ...
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P.S. We don't have to go back to those OT saints. I believe it was the students at Columbine High that instead of denying their faith, they stood and faced death. Like you, I'd like to think I would also, but we don't know unless faced with that situation or one like it.Hebrews 11:39 does not indicate those who lived under the OC did not attain salvation. The "promise" they did not "receive" was Messiah ... they did not live to see His coming.
When Joseph and Mary brought Jesus to the temple when He was 8 days old:
Luke 2:25-32
25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Simeon "came by the Spirit" ... he was led into the temple by the Holy Spirit.
He saw the Salvation of God
yes ... a faith walk ...
Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
from faith to faith ... not from works to faith ... or faith to works ... the walk of faith is from faith to faith ... ongoing faith as we walk in faith in He Who has promised to keep all His promises.
Can you imagine being threatened to be thrown into a fiery furnace? ... or a den of lions? ... would you stand strong in faith like Shadrach, Meschach, and Abednego did? ... or as Daniel did? How about Abraham when he offered up his son, Isaac? ... would you walk away from untold riches like Moses did? ... I like to think I would stand strong in faith like the believers we read about in Hebrews 11.
And they stood strong having not received the promise, while we, who have received the promise (the "some better thing" – Hebrews 11:40), whine if someone who we know has received the promise (i.e. is born again) does not agree 100% with with us ... just look at the behavior going on over in the "Calvinism is Gospel !" thread ... smh ...
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When we, or should I say I, state that I am saved, it is a statement of faith in the promise of God. What I am actually doing, and I think many are not aware of this, is " Be ye followers (imitators) of God as dear children." Eph. 5:1. How am I being an imitator of God? you may ask, "(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before Him whom he believed, and even God, who quickens the dead, AND CALLETH THOSE THINGS THAT BE NOT AS THOUGH THEY WERE." Rom. 4:17 We don't fully have salvation until we see Jesus face to face, as those in Hebrews 11 have. They have received "the end of their faith, even the salvation of their souls." 1 Peter 1:9, after Jesus " preached to the spirits in prison" 1 Peter 3:19 We, in the new covenant, have been given an earnest or down payment, of salvation by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. "....but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." Matt 10:22. The question arises, end of what? I believe the end of our faith. The OT believers were declared righteous, because they believed in God's promises, but had not yet received salvation. So yes, they were saved or attained salvation, eventually, IMHO.
So Christ's body came from Adam but His blood which, is a part of His body, came directly from God and the sin nature is in every cell of our body except our blood?
You come up with some weird ideas.
So your soul remains unsaved at this stage?
How can they be fully saved if they are still waiting for resurrection bodies?
btw the spirits in prison are the fallen angels of Genesis 6 not those who were resting in Sheol, Paradise (Abraham's bosom) waiting entrance to heaven. Noah and crew were not the disobedient ones.
1Peter 3:19-20
19by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared,
According to Luke 2, when Simeon saw the Lord Jesus Christ when He was an 8 day old infant, Simeon declared "mine eyes have seen thy salvation". Simeon was led by the Spirit to the temple that day. God had promised Simeon that he would not die before he saw Messiah. Simeon was a believer under the OC who heard from God ... who was led by the Spirit. Believers under the OC rested in salvation ... the same salvation believers under the NC rest in.
Hebrews 11:39-40
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
The "some better thing" spoken of in vs 40 is the Comforter, the promise of the Father, the earnest of our inheritance. Not having received the gift of Holy Spirit does not mean those under the OC did not receive salvation.
Acts 1:1-5
1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
When the Lord Jesus Christ was with His disciples the night He was taken to be crucified, recall that He said:
John 16:5-7
5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
The Lord Jesus Christ had to go through what He went through ... the crucifixion ... the resurrection ... the ascension ... before the Comforter could come.
the Comforter is the Spirit of truth – John 14:16-17; John 15:26
the Comforter is the Holy Spirit – John 14:26
the Comforter is the promise of the Father – Acts 1:4
This is "the some better thing" referred to in Hebrews 11:40. Believers under the OC received the same salvation we receive ... and some of the believers had Holy Spirit upon them ... believers under the NC receive the same salvation as those under the OC; however, under the NC, born again believers have Holy Spirit indwelling them; not just upon, but within.
the Holy Spirit indwelling the born again believer is also referred to as the "earnest" ...
2 Corinthians 1:20-22
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2 Corinthians 5:1-5
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Ephesians 1:12-14
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
The word "earnest" is translated from the Greek word arrhabṓn which means down-payment pledge; advance-payment that guarantees the rest will be given; arrhabṓn represents full security backed by the purchaser who supplies sufficient proof they will fulfill the entire pledge (promise).
From SermonIndex:
THE BELIEVER'S "DIVINE ENGAGEMENT RING"
One form of arrabon was used for an engagement ring! God's bestowal of His Spirit is the church's irrevocable pledge, her "divine engagement ring" giving her firm assurance that she is immutably betrothed to Christ's. In the NT arrabon is used only in a figurative sense and is used to describe the Holy Spirit Who the Father has given to believers in this present life to assure them of their future and eternal inheritance.
Cole writes that...
God gives us the Holy Spirit as the down payment or earnest of the full blessing of our future redemption. In one sense, we have been redeemed by the blood of Christ (Ephesians 1:7-note). But, in another sense, our redemption is not complete until we get to heaven. Right now we can begin to enjoy the inheritance that is ours in Christ. But it’s just a foretaste of future glory. We don’t get the complete inheritance until we go to heaven.
G728: ἀῤῥαβών (arrhabṓn) | SermonIndex
a pledge, i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest
Salvation always was ... is now ... always will be ... by grace through faith. In our day and time, the born again believer receives the gift of Holy Spirit within ... this is the "the some better thing" believers in the OT did not receive, but the salvation was the same then as salvation is now.
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He is the LAST Adam, same blood type. Women and their children can have different blood types. His blood was COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from everyone else born of a woman. Haven't you listened to the many songs written about it? If God gave Adam his blood, couldn't He give the last Adam His? Or are you saying that it's impossible? Question, does sin tainted blood flow through every cell of our bodies? " For it(blood) is the LIFE of ALL FLESH; the blood of it(flesh) is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, you shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the LIFE of ALL FLESH IS THE BLOOD THEREOF:........." Lev. 17:14. Although sin entered into the world by one man, Adam, Eve still disobeyed God's directive, and we call that sin, so her blood was tainted by sin also. Jesus' blood was unique, and it will never lose it's power. You need to thank God for the uniqueness of that blood.So Christ's body came from Adam but His blood which, is a part of His body, came directly from God and the sin nature is in every cell of our body except our blood?
You come up with some weird ideas.
Having different blood isn't the issue. You are effectively saying every cell of Christ's body had Mary's DNA except His blood. Life doesn't work that way.
And the "life is in the blood" is in reference to animals, not humans. Our human life is in our soul, not our blood. Our blood only carries our physical life which will be replaced in the resurrection.
1 Pet.3:19-20 Refers to Christ's proclamation to the spirits after His resurrection and suggests a message of HOPE and Judgement to those who died before His resurrection. Interpreted by some as a means of offering salvation to the righteous dead. Also may symbolize those who were disobedient during Noah's time. Theological interpretations vary among different denominations. AI generated. I believe that Jesus preached to both the disobedient (judgement) AND to the righteous(hope). But our conversation was about the righteous. "Formerly were disobedient" is an interesting phrase.So your soul remains unsaved at this stage?
How can they be fully saved if they are still waiting for resurrection bodies?
btw the spirits in prison are the fallen angels of Genesis 6 not those who were resting in Sheol, Paradise (Abraham's bosom) waiting entrance to heaven. Noah and crew were not the disobedient ones.
1Peter 3:19-20
19by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared,
He proclaimed His victory to spirits, men are not spirits. There is nowhere in scripture where you will find men being called spirits. We are souls. It was the spirits who were disobedient in the days of Noah, the ones who are at present in chains, 2Pet.2:4 as the 1 Peter 3 reading states.
I notice it is becoming common practice for you not to answer the questions that would unravel your theories.
How does a dead spirit hear?
Is your soul not saved at present?
Having different blood IS the issue, if Christ's blood wasn't different, we all would have no hope. What you are not taking into account, seemingly, is the extraordinary measures God made to bring you from darkness to light. Doesn't Jesus' blood cleanse? Cleanse from what? Sin. So if " every cell of Christ's body had Mary's DNA" then sin couldn't affect or infect Him because of the uniqueness of His cleansing blood. The passage of scripture I referred to was about warning the Israelites against drinking the blood of animals, but Gods' Word said the life of ALL FLESH is in the blood. Last I checked all means exactly that, all. What flesh are you excluding that God didn't? Run out of blood, which "only" carries our physical life, ( I hope you don't) and see if you have human life. You CANNOT have human life without blood! Ergo, the life of the flesh is in the blood, not the soul.
You are going off topic. @Genez stated the sin nature is inherited from Adam only. Woman do not pass the sin nature down yet they have a sin nature because every woman has a father. You said you agreed 100%. Yet here you are arguing Mary had no part in the genetic makeup of Christ's blood. It is not how DNA works.
Christ's blood is symbolic of His life, there is no special quality to it that makes it different in some way to every other cell in His body. He was fully man in the Incarnation just like us but had no sin nature and committed no personal sins. His blood had Mary's DNA just as your blood has your mothers DNA.
Of course I still have human life when I die physically. You think I cease to exist because I no longer have a body?
You really are full of strange ideas.
ps. You think God was speaking of eating humans when He said "all flesh has life in the blood" or do you think the people hearing would recognise He was speaking of eating animals only?
Mankind is born spirit, soul and body, just as the Godhead is three parts. If I am created in the image and after the likeness of God, and I am, then the Bible says that God is Spirit and I'm like Him, spiritually. You believe you are just a soul with a body and a late arriving spirit. I know that I am a spirit, I possess a soul and I live in a body. Spirits are eternal, they don't die, and I have NEVER said that spirits die or were dead. By faith, my spirit, soul and body has received an earnest or down payment, evidenced by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, of salvation. When I say I am saved, it is a statement of faith, " Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Phil. 1:6. Unlike you, there is more good work to be done in me. " We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak." 11Cor. 4:13 Faith speaks what it believes, even when, like my Father, I " call things which be not as though they were " Rom. 4:17. All from the Word of God.
I turned you off when you said there is ' no special quality to it ", speaking of the blood of Jesus. Now I KNOW there is something wrong with you. I would like to be there so you can tell that to Jesus, face to face, that there was no " special quality " about His blood. But you would have to be at the Judgement seat of Christ, not the great white throne. You, Maam, are foolish, and I don't usually say things like that, but with the statement you made, it's merited. You talk about strange ideas, you are the queen of strange, IMHO. The LIFE of ALL FLESH IS IN THE BLOOD. P.S. Humans have bodies.You are going off topic. @Genez stated the sin nature is inherited from Adam only. Woman do not pass the sin nature down yet they have a sin nature because every woman has a father. You said you agreed 100%. Yet here you are arguing Mary had no part in the genetic makeup of Christ's blood. It is not how DNA works.
Christ's blood is symbolic of His life, there is no special quality to it that makes it different in some way to every other cell in His body. He was fully man in the Incarnation just like us but had no sin nature and committed no personal sins. His blood had Mary's DNA just as your blood has your mothers DNA.
Of course I still have human life when I die physically. You think I cease to exist because I no longer have a body?
You really are full of strange ideas.
ps. You think God was speaking of eating humans when He said "all flesh has life in the blood" or do you think the people hearing would recognise He was speaking of eating animals only?