Daniel’s “Final Week” (70th Week) Has ALREADY Been Fulfilled
- Thread starter JacobGilbert
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I do not believe another lengthy exchange will be productive. You have made it clear that you regard Fruchtenbaum’s futurist framework as the only possible interpretation and that anyone who disagrees is a “biblically illiterate hack.” That is not a basis for a serious discussion of the text. And unfortunately, this does seem to be your "go to" style.
My position is not that every interpretation is equally true. My position is that your conclusions are not all expressly stated in Daniel. Daniel does not explicitly say that the little horn, the prince of Daniel 9, the willful king, Paul’s man of sin, John’s antichrist, and Revelation’s beast are eleven titles for one future individual. That is Fruchtenbaum’s synthesis.
You are free to believe that synthesis, but repeatedly restating it—and insulting anyone who questions it—is not the same as proving each link from Scripture.
I have explained why Daniel’s use of “king” can be representative, why personal language does not exclude a corporate or institutional power, and why Daniel 7:24 does not grammatically settle the issue in the way you claim. Yet rather than addressing those points directly, you have continued to repeat Fruchtenbaum’s conclusions which are, in many ways, quite weak and unsupported, but very strong in opinion. Repeating another man’s interpretation is not the same as demonstrating it from the text, and it doesn't seem as though you can offer more than a parroting of his conclusions. I believe this may cause you to become very angry when asked to discuss or comment those statements made by him, and this causes you to respond in the manner that you find acceptable. It gives me little reason to believe that further discussion will be productive. Consequently, I will move on and will not respond to any further posts or replies from you.
That is not a basis for a serious discussion of the ***TEXT***.
What you cannot grasp is what the text is intended to illustrate are PATTERNS and TYPES.
If you breach the PATTERN and/or the TYPE, you WILL be wrong. 100% of the time.
For example this preposterous zany nuttery that the papacy is the little horn/anti-christ.
The multitude of the TYPES of the little horn aka son of perdition are ALL and ALWAYS ****individual**** kings/chiefs/warriors without exception.
No there isn't, such gap was absolutely invented. The "abomination of desolation" in this 70 week prophecy is exactly what it means literally, the desolation of Jerusalem, and the abomination that has taken place in its site, throughout the church age, ever since 70AD. It has nothing to do the antichrist or third temple or all that political thriller.
So what you are really saying is the "Last Supper" (the Passover Seder Jesus shared with His disciples), which corresponds to the Shidduchin, Ketubah and Kos Habrit never happened?
Welp.....it happened. Definitely. It happened.
Quite the contrary, Jesus fulfilled Dan. 9:27 at the last supper, with the "strong covenant" he made with his disciples (Matt. 26:28). What happened with the dispensationalists' interpretation is to have changed the "He" therein from Christ to antichrist.
Are you Catholic by any chance ? Because the futurist view was promoted to rid the Papacy of the stigma of being called the Anti-Christ.
It is also used to promote Zionism.
Just wondering what camp you're trying to aggressively defend
The futurist view was promoted by Moses, Isaiah, Joel, Hosea, Zechariah, Christ Jesus, Peter and Paul.
In fact Genesis 3 proves futurist dispensationalism indubitably.
Yes, YHVH is a futurist dispensationalist. No doubt about that.
No, he's the creatOR.He is a creationist thoughJust joking
Eeeerrrrr Moses was a "Zionist". And I like Moses, who is a type of Christ.You obviously really believe that, and of course you are Zionist, so no amount of scripture will convince you otherwise
Interestingly, Moses makes an appearance at the transfiguration, and will be seen here:
Rev 11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Indeed, Jesus God is outside of time, created time, and manages time.
But its clear that, as far as we time-bound creatures are concerned, He chose futurist dispensationalism to mete out His plan of Salvation.
BTW, the term "dispensationalism" is only a buzzword. We use it for lack of a better term.
I am astounded that people cannot grasp the fact that the Genesis 3 saga and prophecy proves "dispensationalism" quite beyond doubt. What did you think? That when God specifies a future redemption, somehow its not future for us?
Well, it most certain is. Sorry fake sorry.
The biblical narrative is consistent, God is the same God; dispensationalism is guilty of slicing and dicing the bible into different time eras, i.e. "dispensations" and assigning different message and different characters of God to each era; they can even further divided into little sub-eras, so you can pick the sections of the bible in your tailored "sub-era" and dismiss others.
To be honest, I really admire most most dispensationalist pastors for their courage and convition in what other churches ignore, namely the end time prophecies and discernment of the present age; but this seven-year tribulation narrative is their own invention, they add this church age gap, the Antichrist, the third temple, the deal with the devil, all those stuff into a single verse, and have the audacity to lecture on us that these stuffs are already in there, they just discovered it. Please forgive me for not buying it.
This is really the key of how to understand the words of Jesus.
If people are not using a standard consistent hermeneutic then there really is no way to find common ground,
old testament symbolism,
audience relevance,
time indicators and
the historical sources
are the correct interpretative method not literal reading when needed and other methods when not needed.
The absolute disregard of time indicators clearly stated in scripture is shocking.
Moses led Israel through the sea toward an earthly land, but Jesus led His people through death into the everlasting Kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 10:1-4; Colossians 1:13)
The greatest Exodus wasn't merely from one country to another.
It was the covenantal deliverance from slavery under the Law into freedom, life, and direct access to God through Christ.
(Galatians 4:4-7; Hebrews 10:19-22)
The first Exodus brought Israel to Mount Sinai, but the greater Exodus brought believers to Mount Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem. (Hebrews 12:18-24)
Moses mediated the Old Covenant at Sinai, but Jesus became the Mediator of the New Covenant. (Hebrews 8:6; Hebrews 12:24)
The writer did not say believers would someday come to Mount Zion. He said, "ye are come," showing that this was already a present covenant reality. (Hebrews 12:22-24)
The first Exodus ended at Mount Sinai with the giving of the Law, but the greater Exodus brings believers to Mount Zion under the New Covenant. (Exodus 19:20; Hebrews 12:22-24)
I would highly suggest moving into this Age of the New Covenant.