How do angels jibe with the Holy Spirit?

(The previous passage should have been Rev. 16:1-21.)

In Rev. 17:1-18 the 7th angel showed John the punishment of the "great prostitute" or "Babylon the Great" (cf. Jer. 50-51, esp. 51:13, and Isa. 23, esp. v.3), drunk with the blood of the Christian saints (cf. Matt. 23:29-36, 1Kings 19:10, 2Chron. 24:22, Jer. 2:30), the great city who rules over the earth. The beast upon which she road was described as he who "once was, now is not, and yet will come". The beast's seven heads are seven hills and kings, five of whom have fallen, one who is, and one who has not yet come.

Although until this point in Revelation the great city seemed to refer to Jerusalem (cf. Rev. 11:8 & 14:8), reference to many waters, seven hills and ruling over the earth indicates awareness that Jerusalem has fallen to Rome, and the world's spiritual locus (around which the world's history of beliefs revolved) has been replaced by the political power. Thus, "kings" may refer to Roman emperors, "five have fallen" may refer to the first five (Julius through Claudius), the one "who is" to Nero, and the one who will "remain for a little while" to Galba (who reigned about six months).

The beast himself is an 8th king (probably Apollyon/Abaddon, the Destroyer from the Abyss in Rev. 9:11), and the beast's ten horns are kings who will rule with the beast and make war against the Lamb until defeated by Him and his faithful followers. The waters where the prostitute sits represent the world's nations and peoples, so the 8th king may refer to an eventual emperor of the entire earth including ten kingdoms. The beast and horns will also ruin the prostitute (anti-Christian Jews?, cf. Rom. 11:25-32) in order to rule until God's words are fulfilled (Rom. 11:33-36, 1Cor. 15:20-28).

In Rev. 18:1-24 John saw an angel come down from heaven and heard him shout, "Fallen is Babylon the Great!", describing "her" as an adulteress and home for demons.

Then another voice from heaven commanded "Come out of her, my people, so you will not share in her sins and receive any of her plagues." The plagues mentioned include death, famine and fire, which will prompt the kings of earth who committed adultery with her to cry "Woe, O Babylon, your doom has come!", and the merchants of earth will mourn because she no longer buys their cargoes, crying "Woe, O great city, who has been brought to ruin!", and the seamen will see the smoke of her burning and also exclaim, "Woe, but rejoice saints, apostles and prophets, for God has judged her treatment of you!"

Then a mighty angel threw a boulder the size of a millstone into the sea and said, "Babylon will be thrown down and never found again. By her magic spell the nations were led astray, and in her was found the blood of the prophets and saints and all on earth who were murdered."

Describing Babylon as an adulteress indicates that Jerusalem might again be in view (cf. Hosea 1:2, 3:1, 4:1, 5:4, 6:7, 7:4, 8:14, 9:9, 10:8), although the references to the trade by sea with the nations would apply more aptly to Rome. The cry to come out of her probably should be understood as referring to spiritual repentance more than to physical emigration, and thus the plagues, fire and forever ruin may refer to ultimate destruction in hell, which is described as repayment or reaping the just consequence of sin (cf. Rom. 2:5-11).

Understood in this light, one can view Babylon as the city of Satan or the worldwide realm of the ungodly/demonic spirit of Anti-Christ. Judgment of sin is a cause of joy for saints or those whose repentance has resulted in sharing the righteousness of Christ (Rom. 3:21-5:1).

HealthAndHappiness said:

No the teaching of hebrewd does not conflict with the doctrines of John.
They are different ministries.
Angels minister to physical needs as servants doing God's will for the saved. There were times they served as messengers before scriptures were completed..

There's a lot of teaching on the ministry of the Holy Spirit in John's gospel I don't have time to get into.
Suffice to say He comforts the saved and revealed truth from His words.
To the list the Holy Spirit reproves of sin, righteousness and judgement.
He is directly involved in salvation ministry to the lost as believers present His Word.

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I appreciate your interest in this issue. Because Revelation has many references to angels, I decided to conduct a systematic study of it before attempting a conclusion. We also will need to survey OT references to angelic beings, including the cherubim in Gen 3:24, the angel of the Lord in Gen. 16:7 and those who appeared to Abraham in Gen. 18:1-2 and to Lot in Gen. 19:1.

My tentative perception of the options regarding angels is this:

1. There is a category of created beings about whom we only catch glimpses in Biblical references, but who presumably have MFW if a third of them fell from heaven and thus a salvation history.

2. References to angels in the OT, gospels and Rev actually foreshadow and describe the multiple ministries of the Holy Spirit, who was not revealed/given until Pentecost or fully understood until the NT was completed with the epistles.

3. Both angels and the HS exist, but the HS is God and angels are created/not divine.

I suspect that we will not learn the answer until heaven, but I am searching for clues and appreciate y'all's comments.
I believe that I am indwelt by the HS, but I have had no known encounter with angels.

In Rev. 19:1-21 John heard the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting praise to God for His just judgments, which included condemnation of the great prostitute who corrupted the earth and murdered those who served God (Rev. 17:1-6, 18:2-24). The 24
elders and four living creatures (Rev. 4:4-10, 5:6, 7:11, 11:16) also worshipped God and cried, "Amen, Hallelujah!"

Then a voice from the throne urged God's servants to praise Him, and a multitude glorified God because the wedding of the Lamb has come (cf. Matt. 22:1-14), and the bride is the saints (cf. 2Cor. 11:2, Eph. 5:25-27, Isa. 54:5). An angel said, "Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!" John fell at his feet, but the angel told him to worship God (cf. Acts 14:11-13), whose testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy (cf. Matt. 11:13, Luke 24:44-45, John 5:39-40&46, 2Pet. 1:21).

Then John saw a white horse, whose rider was called Faithful and True (Rev. 3:14), who conducts just war (cf. Eccl. 3:8), who was dressed in a robe dipped in blood (Matt. 26:28, Rom. 5:9, Col. 1:20, Heb. 9:22, 1Pet. 1:18-19, 1John 1:7), and whose name is the Word of God (John 1:1-14). Armies from heaven followed him, and out of his mouth came a sharp sword (Eph. 6:7, Heb. 4:12). He will rule the nations with an iron scepter (Rev. 2:27, 12:5, Psa. 2:9)

He trod the winepress of God's wrath (Isa. 63:3, Rev. 14:19-20), and on his robe and thigh was written the name, "King of kings and Lord of lords" (cf. 1Tim. 6:15, Rev. 17:14). An angel cried out an invitation to come to the supper of God and eat the flesh of ungodly people (cf. Psa. 14:4, 27:2, Micah 3:2-3).

Finally, John saw a beast with the armies of the kings of the earth gathered to make war against the rider on the white horse (cf. Matt. 24:6-8, Rev. 16:14, 20:7-8, Zech. 14:1-3), but he was captured along with the false prophet who had performed miracles on his behalf, which deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshipped his image (Rev. 13:11-15, 16:13-14). The beast and false prophet were thrown into the fiery lake (Rev. 20:10), and the rest were killed by the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the white horse (Rev. 1:16).

In Rev. 20:1-15 John saw an angel from heaven with the key to the Abyss holding a chain with which he bound the dragon or Satan and locked him in the Abyss for 1,000 years. John also saw judges seated on thrones and the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and teaching the word of God, refusing to worship the beast or to receive his mark. They came to life and reigned with Christ during the millennium.

This first resurrection did not include the rest of the dead (apparently including believers who died before the dragon's persecution), and blessed are those who are included and reign as priests of God/Christ, because the second death (the lake of fire cited in verses 10 & 14) has no power over them.

After the end of the millennium, Satan will be released and deceive all nations, gathering them (led by Gog and Magog, cf. Ezek. 38:2 & 14-39:6) for battle against God's beloved people. However, fire from heaven devoured the ungodly army, and the deceiving devil was thrown into the lake of fire with the beast and false prophet, where they will be tormented eternally. This seems to refer to the eternal punishment in Jesus' Parable of the Sheep and Goats (Matt. 25:31-46).

Then John saw One seated on a great white throne and the resurrected dead standing before Him. Books recording the sins of each person were opened, and judgment was rendered accordingly. Another book, the book of life, was also opened, and anyone whose name was not written in it was thrown into the lake of fire along with death and Hades, which is the second death. It is unclear whether those who were judged according to their sins will be dead/destroyed or tormented forever, but consider the following:

Good and evil options are opposite because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (Deut. 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists:
It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. Whoever rejects the Lord thereby chooses Satan and reaps the just consequence (Gal. 6:7-9, Heb. 9:27-28), which is necessary and good, perhaps experiencing the agony they caused on earth in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (Matt. 5:38), after which they are destroyed (per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14).

In Rev. 21:1-27 John saw a new heaven and earth after the first heavens and earth had passed away. He also saw a new Jerusalem prepared as a bride dressed for her husband, and he heard a voice proclaim that God will dwell with humanity and wipe every tear from their eyes, because there will be no more mourning due to death or pain when the old order has ended and everything is made new. John was told to write that He who is seated on the throne is the Alpha and Omega, who will give the water of life to all who overcome and inherit God's blessings as His children. However, those who are unbelieving sinners will be consigned to the fiery lake, which is the second death.

Then an angel of the seven last plagues told John to come and see the bride of the Lamb, and he took John to the mountain of Jerusalem, which shone with the glory of God, like jasper and clear crystal. The city had a high wall with twelve gates guarded by angels, and on the gates the names of the tribes of twelve tribes of Israel were written. The walls were on twelve foundations on which were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. The angel guiding John had a measuring rod, and he found the city to be 12,000 stadia in length and width. The jasper wall was 144 cubits thick, and the city and streets were made of pure gold. The foundations were adorned with twelve kinds of precious stone, and the gates were single pearls.

There was no temple in the city, because the Lord God and Lamb are its temple, and there was no sun or moon, because the glory of God gives it light and the Lamb is its lamp, by which the nations and kings will walk. The gates are never shut, because there is no night. Nothing impure or anyone who does evil will ever enter it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

In Rev. 22:1-21 an angel showed John the river of the water of life flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit every month. God’s servants will have his name on their foreheads, and there will be no more night, because God will give them light forever. The angel said that these words are trustworthy and true: “Behold, I am coming soon!”

John said that he fell down to worship the angel, who said not to do so, but to worship God. Then the angel said not to seal this book and to let people continue doing what they have been doing. Then the warning of Jesus that he is coming soon was repeated with the addition that he would give to everyone according to what he has done and that he is the Alpha and Omega.

John states that those whose robes are washed are blessed and may enter the city, whereas those who love to sin will remain outside. Again, Jesus is quoted as saying that he has sent his angel to give this testimony for the churches (prompting the question: Is the angel of Jesus the HS?) and that he is the Root and Offspring of David, which seems parallel to being "Alpha and Omega" (in v.13) and might indicate that in divine chronology the future determines the meaning of the past.

John ended Revelation by writing that the Spirit and bride say “Come”, and that whoever wishes may take the free gift of the water of life. He warns adding words to or removing words from this book, and for the third times says “I am coming soon”, to which John added his amen.

So, now that we have perused references to angels in the Gospels and Revelation, it is time to try to jibe the role of angels with the role of the Holy Spirit. My initial impression agrees with Pilgrim in post #9: Angels served as mediators between God and men until superseded by the HS of Jesus (1Tim. 2:5, cf. Joel 2:28-29, Acts 7:30). Thus, references to angels involved in the birth and early ministry of Jesus are superseded by references to the HS toward the end of his life (John 14-16) and after His ascension (Acts 2).

However, this understanding needs to be harmonized with Heb. 1-2, which refers to angels as spirits who minister to the saints (Heb. 1:14) and to the HS as the gifting the saints (Heb. 2:4). Heb. 2:16 is noteworthy for indicating that Jesus did not die for angels but only for mortals.

What do y'all think?
How does angelology overlap with pneumatology?

GWH said:

So, now that we have perused references to angels in the Gospels and Revelation, it is time to try to jibe the role of angels with the role of the Holy Spirit. My initial impression agrees with Pilgrim in post #9: Angels served as mediators between God and men until superseded by the HS of Jesus (1Tim. 2:5, cf. Joel 2:28-29, Acts 7:30). Thus, references to angels involved in the birth and early ministry of Jesus are superseded by references to the HS toward the end of his life (John 14-16) and after His ascension (Acts 2).

However, this understanding needs to be harmonized with Heb. 1-2, which refers to angels as spirits who minister to the saints (Heb. 1:14) and to the HS as the gifting the saints (Heb. 2:4). Heb. 2:16 is noteworthy for indicating that Jesus did not die for angels but only for mortals.

What do y'all think?
How does angelology overlap with pneumatology?

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I guess no one knows much about angels, and we must wait until heaven to understand how they fit into God's POS (along with other problematic issues in the Bible, such as baptism for the dead, the genocide by Joshua, the interpretation of Rev., and whether Joseph may be called the Father of God if Mary is His mother).

However, my guess is that angels manifested the HS during the OT dispensation (cited in Rev.) and NT transitional era, and they were subsumed by the HS (cf. the NT superseding the OT per Heb. 7:11-10:10) after He was manifested as foretold by Jesus in John 14-16 and recorded by Luke in Acts.

It is not a matter of replacing the angels but of keeping them in their proper place. Thus 1Cor. 12:31-14:1 might be applicable to angelology, and we should allow the angels to become less important as the HS becomes greater--as John said with regard to Jesus in John 3:30.

Notice that most of Paul's references to angels puts them in a less important position than the HS or even saints:

1Cor. 6:2-3, Paul said "Do you not know that we are to judge angels?", indicating that they are subservient to saints.

1Cor. 13:1, Paul said that speaking with the "tongues of men and of angels" is less important than love (cf. Rom. 5:5).

Gal. 1:8, Paul said that even if an "angel from heaven" preaches a different gospel, they should be rejected as heretical.

Col. 2:18, Paul warned against the "worship of angels", who are less important than Christ's HS.

Rom. 8:38, Paul said that nothing, not even "angels or rulers" in the spiritual realm, can separate saints from God's love (HS).

Paul’s remarks about angels are comparable to what he said about tongues—ambiguous/ambivalent.
Just as on the one hand he preferred a few prophetic words to babbling, on the other hand he did not forbid SIT.
Similarly, Paul glorified the HS but also spoke as though angels played a role in the spiritual realm.

GWH said:

Paul’s remarks about angels are comparable to what he said about tongues—ambiguous/ambivalent.
Just as on the one hand he preferred a few prophetic words to babbling, on the other hand he did not forbid SIT.
Similarly, Paul glorified the HS but also spoke as though angels played a role in the spiritual realm.

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Bottom line: Scriptures speaking of angels are problematic and part of the OT tradition
that is superseded by the NT revelation and presence of the HS (cf. Heb. 7:11-10:10).

The NT Revelation tends to glorify angels and ignore the HS, which is problematic/not normative--
probably due to applying so many OT references to the end of the world instead of being content
with the teaching of Paul in 1Cor. 15 and 1Thes. 5.

GWH said:

Bottom line: Scriptures speaking of angels are problematic and part of the OT tradition
that is superseded by the NT revelation and presence of the HS (cf. Heb. 7:11-10:10).

The NT Revelation tends to glorify angels and ignore the HS, which is problematic/not normative--
probably due to applying so many OT references to the end of the world instead of being content
with the teaching of Paul in 1Cor. 15 and 1Thes. 5.

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Bumped for comments.

decipher said:

In the Old Testament there are two types of angels: "the angel of God" and "the angel of the Lord". The "angel of God" is His Son, who is the image of the Father because the Son is filled with the Spirit (presence) of the Father and the Son obeys the Father. The Son becomes the physical image on the earth of the invisible God the Father. In the ancient Jewish custom of "agency", when someone is sent in the name of a ruler, he, as the agent of the ruler, represents the ruler in words and in power. The "angels of the Lord" represent the many inferior angels that are sent by the Lord, who is the Son of God. That is why the God of the Old Testament exhibited all those negative traits such as anger, grief, jealousy, and change of mind. God's Glory is the Father's Holy Spirit which allows the Father to enter the being of the Son. There is only one "angel of God", the Son. There are many angels of the Lord, and they are all filled with the Spirit of the Son whom they represent. The Son had this Glory (portal through which he was able to enter the beings indwelled) before the world was. He lost this glory when he became human, but regained it when he ascended back to the Father after his death and resurrection from the dead. He went back to the Father to get glorified so that he would be able to enter humans that he baptized with the Holy Spirit. These humans, chosen by the Father when He grants repentance for sins committed, are changed (born again) when they receive the "Promise of the Father" (the Son's Holy Spirit) through which the Son (and the Father through the Son) can enter the being indwelled and become part of the Spiritual Body of the Son (the real Church). It is the indwelling of the Father and the Son through the portal of the Holy Spirit that changes our motivation for living from love of self first to love of God first and all others as we love ourselves. That is how Jesus is one with the Father, and we become one with both the Father and the Son.

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I cannot decipher this without Scripture references to support what you say.
For starters, God IS Lord, and Jesus is called Messiah and Son, but not Angel, of God.

I see where you paraphrase Phil. 2, and I agree that the Father and Son indwell believers as the HS,
but why are angels needed now?

Again, the bottom line IMO is that angels seem to be part of the OT tradition, which Revelation applies to the end times,
that is superseded by the NT revelation and presence of the HS (cf. Heb. 7:11-10:10), mainly per the teaching of Paul in 1Cor. 15 and 1Thes. 5.

Roger316 said:

The gospel of John is where we learn that the Holy Spirit is the advocate of Jesus Christ. On the other hand, we learn that Jesus is OUR advocate in John's first letter.

I'm not sure why the role of the HS would conflict with ministering angels. Can you explain it further?

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Yes, it seems to me that angels subbed for the Holy Spirit during the Old Testament era before the ministry of the Holy Spirit was revealed, and now that we realize the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives, who needs angels? Seems redundant at least.