OSAS, When does salvation take place?
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Sorry but I cannot see how Aussie52's post to which you were replying ("You need to study objectively, the Book of Hebrews.") can be seen as another way of saying, "Screw my kids, I now hate them and will send them to their eternal death."
When God orchestrated all of this he had something in mind the fact that we don't fully comprehend it yet there's no reason to assault the belief or the faith
However that type of assessment can only be made from somebody without enough information about Hebrews it's audience and it's purpose
Ok, so I don't have enough information about Hebrews, its audience and its purpose?
Let's try this.
Author. Although there have been many contenders, remains 'unknown'.
Genre. Sermon.
Addressees: 'The best proposal is William Lane's. It builds on the argument that Hebrews was written to an early Jewish Christian community in Rome.' Hebrews. Kevin L Anderson.
Purpose:
This community was under threat of Neronian persecution as well as persecution from the Jewish community. There are repeated exhortations to endure and persevere alienation (11:13), imprisonment, torture, exile and execution (11:25-40).
Extreme discouragement had overcome some members of the community; this may ultimately result in outright abandonment of their Christian commitment Thus; Hebrews contains five frightening warnings about the danger of apostasy. (2:1-4,3:7-4:13, 5:11-6:12. 10:19-39, 12:14-29).
'Hebrews exhorts the readers to avoid falling away or turning back from their allegiance to Christ. The traditional view is that they were tempted to slip back into beliefs and practices of Judaism to which they were accustomed prior to their reception of the Gospel.' Anderson.
How am I going legion?
But I was asking how you understood Aussie's post about studying Hebrews to mean, Screw my kids, I now hate them and will send them to their eternal death."
Okay, so Jesus being YHWH Himself says to keep the commandments….that then means ALL YHWH commands…so how does that ‘boil down’ to the modern theology of the 20th century that CHANGED the original teaching’s of the apostles AWAY from daily repentant submissive humble obedience to God’s will for our DAILY ENDEAVORS - TO NOW, a mere ‘thought’ with NO ACTIVE PARTICIPATION in His plan? Instead “preachers” (for no one Shepherd’s their flock any longer) using scripture to validate one’s choice to PRACTICE/join in the ‘rat race’ of the world’s SINS to fulfill one’s “desires’” and ‘wash away’ guilt hidden under a “fig tree with no fruit” via the offering plate, planting $eeds, volunteering, and forgiving other’s? Repentance is MANDATORY…and those who say that no one can “not sin” is calling YHWH Himself a liar, for His word says that those who TRUST ONLY HIM for provision, daily in continual communion with Him for discernment will NOT PRACTICE sin. Stumbling and getting back up with eyes focused on Him, continuing moving forward WITH HIM - IS walking the straight and narrow path to salvation. Any thing else is walking AWAY from His security and basically walking into the incoming traffic of the World’s agenda and risking one’s life both here and eternally. Faith/trust in politicians, one’s job, or other human beings is to REJECT THE FATHER. YHWH is a jealous God that is clear in His Word - it’s His way or the highway (to hell)…no jumping back and forth between the two (often coming to Him when the mess one makes chasing things not meant for them, only to complain about things He DID NOT tell them to do in the first place). The world preaches free will as the ability to do whatever one wants. That is NOT the character of YHWH, for He NEVER offer’s a less than option and any thing less than is SIN-for it separates us from Him. Free Will is the built in DESIRE (our will) for FREEDOM from bondage. The World’s version subjects the individual to bondage continually. Only HE can give us all that ‘man’ offer’s (and takes away-for man is fickle) - and even more…the abundance to BLESS OTHERS by one’s own hand, being Jesus in the same manner of Jesus - looking them in the eye so they see Jesus within us - a daily testimony to His grace and goodness. Yet many are so tired from chasing the American Dream that one become’s spiritually lazy depending on some church/organization to ‘plow the field’ God assigned to them FOR THEM TO WORK. That is called shirking one’s responsibilities…and it’s a disease within the false church of today that produced only leaves (self motivated works/the struggle) with ZERO fruit from the Father’s hand, secured in His peace and contentment. Selah
The Book of Hebrews is ALL about the assurance of salvation in Christ.
Justified is justified.
The theif on the cross believes God.
The robed man giving pretentious prayers and living without the Word of God on his own does not.
Whoever believes is not judged.
There is no 'day of judgment' for people who believe God.
The robed man giving pretentious prayers and living without the Word of God on his own does not.
Whoever believes is not judged.
There is no 'day of judgment' for people who believe God.
Well technically the believer is rewarded based on the good works but technically there is a judgment it's just not about salvation
I would there are two judgments the great white Throne judgment which is for non-believers and the Bema Judgment which is for the believer.
The purpose of the Bema Seat judgment (or the Judgment Seat of Christ) is for believers to give an account of their earthly lives. Rather than a trial to determine salvation, it is an evaluation of a Christian's works and service to determine eternal rewards.
The term comes from the Greek word bēma, which was a raised platform where umpires at the ancient Olympic games sat to observe contestants, enforce the rules, and award prizes to the victors. Based on scriptures like 2 Corinthians 5:10 and 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, the primary aspects of this event include:
No Condemnation: It is not a place of punishment or determining eternal destiny; all past sins are already forgiven, and the believer's salvation is entirely secure.
Testing of Motives: Every believer's works are tested by fire to reveal their true quality and underlying motivation.
Works done for the right reasons and God's glory will endure, resulting in rewards
Works driven by self-serving motives, or actions not built upon the teachings of Jesus, will be burned up, resulting in a loss of reward
That may be according to dispensationalism, but I think, not according to the Word of God.
Matthew 7 does not say we are.not saved until the day of judgement.
So,with that out of the way,to the OP question,when are we saved?
Just as Jesus the Lord said,the moment we believe.
Eternal Life=Eternal Irrevocable,can never be cancelled, Salvation .
It's a glorious free,because Jesus paid our price, grace gift of God!
So,with that out of the way,to the OP question,when are we saved?
Just as Jesus the Lord said,the moment we believe.
Eternal Life=Eternal Irrevocable,can never be cancelled, Salvation .
It's a glorious free,because Jesus paid our price, grace gift of God!
He is Risen
There's one who's childlike in their faith toward God, always talking to God, acknowledging his dominion and hoping and praying for the wellbeing of all, and hardly regarding his final place among the saints.
Then there's one who tries to be a pull-up-your-bootstraps HR person on Gods behalf, giving himself some exception in regards to the teachings of Christ.
One will be met like a friend who doesn't need review, and one will be met with "well, let's see how well you actually did..."
You say enduring to the end was a teaching of John Wesley and the early Methodists, I just want to point put it is a teaching of Christ himself and he made it clear that we must endure to the end, I say this because its the truth and they got this right, before people here try to label me, No i am not a Methodist, Catholic or part of any denomination and never will be I follow Christ only because his words are eternal life.
Blessings
Did God give us a metric for how we keep our status of Justified?
Is there a quota of sins that cannot be surpassed, how strong does one's faith need to be on a daily basis, is there a quota of good works that need to be completed?
I keep looking for that measurement in scripture, where justified is removed, declared innocent becomes you are guilty again and where Jesus reneges on all His promises and I cannot seem to find it in the scripture.
can you address some of the points I made in the OP, as none of this has anything to do with what is being discussed. or maybe try and tie your points to specific points I made.
Question for you. What if someone loved God with all their heart, then something catastrophic happened like their spouse or child died and they give God the middle finger because "how could He do this to me?" and walk away and decide to go into Wicca. According to your beliefs? Are they still saved?
Hebrews 10:26 is clear that willful sin results in there being no more sacrifice for sin, unless of course you read it differently. Paul wrote the unrighteous won't inherit the kingdom of God. Clearly there is some sort of way in which the Christian must live in order to be saved.
If you're not following let me put it simply, if a Christian lives unrighteously according to Paul they won't enter into the kingdom of heaven. Hebrews 10:26 compliments what Paul is saying perfectly.
Christians are perfected though, we're justified at belief and our sins are forgiven. We're also sealed with the Holy Spirit, who renews us and helps us to walk rightly. John writes that the believer does not sin (meaning practice sin), so while there are warnings the end of those warnings will not be experienced by believers. Those he did predestinate he called, those he called he justified, and those he justified he glorified. Every believer will be saved.